US Pilots Labor Thread 7/7-7/14 - NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[Captain Underpants]

In general (not responding to the quoted poster, per se), it seems like Wake's gonna retrain jurisdiction over the injunction to torpedo the "Plan B/C/D" plans from USAPA.

I'm sure that's going to upset Captain Underpants and the snooper. Prey that the 9th Circus loves Seeham, boys. That is now your only move.

The problem is the airline industry and USAirways in particular is headed for a restructuring. Most of the airlines in their best years were earning a 3% profit margin and now face a long term 20% drop in revenue. 9/11 caused a 7% temporary drop in revenue and bankrupted all the legacy airlines except AMR.

Sometime in the next 18 months our management will come to the pilots with a restructuring plan which could be a merger, bankruptcy, or a fragmentation or any combination of those. Regardless of the form the restructuring plan takes it will require a restructuring or merger agreement with USAPA with the alternative of risking liquidation and the loss of 32000 jobs.

Judge Wake has already ruled that USAPA may change the seniority list to further a legitimate union objective as a matter of law and USAPA members may ratify or reject any new collective bargaining agreement by majority vote. It was also a stipulated fact that East pilots would not ratify any CBA containing the Nicolau award due to the unfairness to East pilots.

When the company negotiates its restructuring plan with USAPA it will require ratification by majority vote of members but if it contains the Nic award as stipulated in court it would be rejected thus placing 32000 jobs at risk. Certainly saving 32000 jobs would qualify as the ultimate legitimate union objective. Judge Wake would then have the option of dissolving his injunction or risk failure of the restructuring plan putting 32000 employees out of work and the airline out of business.

If anyone doubts the outcome of a vote to ratify a Nic CBA consider if you would expect a pilot to vote for any agreement that gives away 15+ years of his seniority. Then factor in negative votes for a restructuring deal that likely could request mitigation of expected LOA 84 pay increases plus incur more downsizing and furloughs.

Read the CLT USAPA July 7 update as they are expecting the company to come to USAPA for a "save the airline plan". USAPA is also spinning up strike preparations through the new strike preparation committee as company actions are directly leading to a major dispute and self help confrontation.

The East pilots know the Nic award is not compatible with company survival and we can only hope the Nic award is rendered moot before it is too late.

underpants

 

[hp_fa]

Judge Wake has already ruled that USAPA may change the seniority list to further a legitimate union objective as a matter of law

I must have missed that. Where would I find that?

 

[Captain Underpants]

I must have missed that. Where would I find that?

Final jury instructions page 7 of the .pdf

up

 

[exB717Flyer]

If anyone doubts the outcome of a vote to ratify a Nic CBA consider if you would expect a pilot to vote for any agreement that gives away 15+ years of his seniority.

We don't believe you so you're going to have to prove it, the only proof being presenting an actual TA for us all to vote on. Looking forward to it.

 

[ClueByFour]

Sometime in the next 18 months our management will come to the pilots with a restructuring plan which could be a merger, bankruptcy, or a fragmentation or any combination of those. Regardless of the form the restructuring plan takes it will require a restructuring or merger agreement with USAPA with the alternative of risking liquidation and the loss of 32000 jobs.

Judge Wake has already ruled that USAPA may change the seniority list to further a legitimate union objective as a matter of law and USAPA members may ratify or reject any new collective bargaining agreement by majority vote. It was also a stipulated fact that East pilots would not ratify any CBA containing the Nicolau award due to the unfairness to East pilots.

He's also going to issue an injunction that Nic is the seniority list in any future contract.

When the company negotiates its restructuring plan with USAPA it will require ratification by majority vote of members but if it contains the Nic award as stipulated in court it would be rejected thus placing 32000 jobs at risk. Certainly saving 32000 jobs would qualify as the ultimate legitimate union objective. Judge Wake would then have the option of dissolving his injunction or risk failure of the restructuring plan putting 32000 employees out of work and the airline out of business.

Not going to happen. Besides which, the East side has not shown the stones to stand up to the company before with restructuring requests--it's a no brainer that the same folks who voted in LOA 93 will refuse to vote themselves out of a job, Nicolau or not.

The East pilots know the Nic award is not compatible with company survival and we can only hope the Nic award is rendered moot before it is too late.

Injunctions, particularly the permanent kind, survive strikes.

I'm sure Plan F will be at least as interesting as A-E have been.

 

[oscarjazz]

I definitely think that now is the time for the West pilots to become full members of USAPA and lead a drive to change the course. What I see now are even more unbelievable plans presented by the hard core web board crowd for how USAPA will accomplish their original goals. There have to be a whole bunch of East pilots that have given up on the current plan and are looking for something different. It should be easy to find some leaders looking for a better way than sitting in court 24/7.

 

[Megasnoop]

First, there is the appeal. Many of the pundits here argue that the odds are long against the east achieving any kind of reversal. Fair enough. But there is also the LOA 93 pay rate expiration issue. The MDA lawsuit, which I now understand may be moving toward an out of court settlement. Such a development would seriously undermine the validity of the certified list which ALPA submitted to arbitrator Nicolau - who I believe is now retired. Which means he wouldn't be able to re-order or modify the list himself.

I’ll summarize an answer to the latest misinformation campaign on this. Contrary to what hp_fa thinks he knows, it makes no sense for MDA to take anything less than an admission the ALPA list was inaccurate. ALPA is dragging this out hoping to dollar MDA to death. Contrary to AOL, their arent 1100 of them contributing. One thing MDA has is some smoking guns. Without an ALPA admission of an inaccurate list, this is nowhere near settlement. And paying their attorney? He beat ALPA out of $54M in Duke Vs ALPA. Hes 2-0 against ALPA now and playing with house money.

Section 29 arbitration is behind us. Many pundits here also predicted the same long odds against an east victory in that scenario.

Contrary to AWAPPA “supremely confidentâ€￾ language on Susie, they’ll have to pay. If Wake wants to test the Hudson (germane/not-germane) Supreme Court ruling, he can have at it.

Finally, the pension forensic investigation. Here I actually agree that the odds are long. OTOH, if LCC is looking at a 70 million $ payout plus a reversion to LOA 84 payrates during the 12 month period between January '10 and January '11 - the total cost to the company may actually dwarf the Kirby proposal. In which case management may actually blink and get serious about hammering out an agreement.

Either way or taken together, all these unresolved issues are compelling reasons to excercise patience, allow events to play out longer, and see what develops.

Good points. Kirby was $110M/year, according to the company. Add LOA84 rates to $35M/yr for two years, you got about $160M. I still think Parker got snookered or did some real poor due diligence. Or maybe he thought hed unload the mess before 2010. The pension is a longer shot, but just like the appeal, your right, weve got to play it out. Weve got time on our side, the West doesnt.

I'm not quite sure that he still doesn't have his jurisdiction intact, especially if the Court were to appoint him a Special Master.

Glad you got all the legaleze, hp. But truth still is, If the 9th reverses ripeness, that kills any legal expense claim on trial #1. Could a AOL win in trial #2 force USAPA to pay legal expenses for both trials? Anythings possible. It depends a lot on the 9th ruling. But do you really think USAPA would negotiate using DOH if the only reason for reversal was ripeness?

I was surprised to learn that the germane/non-germane issue may go before Judge Wake in the damages phase. I had (mistakenly) thought the plaintiffs were passing on that as an issue for the damages phase.

Whats your source?

 

[cleardirect]

The problem is the airline industry and USAirways in particular is headed for a restructuring. Most of the airlines in their best years were earning a 3% profit margin and now face a long term 20% drop in revenue. 9/11 caused a 7% temporary drop in revenue and bankrupted all the legacy airlines except AMR.

Sometime in the next 18 months our management will come to the pilots with a restructuring plan which could be a merger, bankruptcy, or a fragmentation or any combination of those. Regardless of the form the restructuring plan takes it will require a restructuring or merger agreement with USAPA with the alternative of risking liquidation and the loss of 32000 jobs.

Judge Wake has already ruled that USAPA may change the seniority list to further a legitimate union objective as a matter of law and USAPA members may ratify or reject any new collective bargaining agreement by majority vote. It was also a stipulated fact that East pilots would not ratify any CBA containing the Nicolau award due to the unfairness to East pilots.

When the company negotiates its restructuring plan with USAPA it will require ratification by majority vote of members but if it contains the Nic award as stipulated in court it would be rejected thus placing 32000 jobs at risk. Certainly saving 32000 jobs would qualify as the ultimate legitimate union objective. Judge Wake would then have the option of dissolving his injunction or risk failure of the restructuring plan putting 32000 employees out of work and the airline out of business.

If anyone doubts the outcome of a vote to ratify a Nic CBA consider if you would expect a pilot to vote for any agreement that gives away 15+ years of his seniority. Then factor in negative votes for a restructuring deal that likely could request mitigation of expected LOA 84 pay increases plus incur more downsizing and furloughs.

Read the CLT USAPA July 7 update as they are expecting the company to come to USAPA for a "save the airline plan". USAPA is also spinning up strike preparations through the new strike preparation committee as company actions are directly leading to a major dispute and self help confrontation.

The East pilots know the Nic award is not compatible with company survival and we can only hope the Nic award is rendered moot before it is too late.

underpants

This post actually made me laugh. I am simply amazed at the level of misunderstanding and lack of forethought that you have. I am not sure it is intentional or if you really are so focused on DOH that you believe what you say and ignore the obvious.

First off you make a big asumsion that we will be in bankruptcy. But even IF it were to happen. The Nicolau stays in place. The company would need a deal. The court has stated that they will not interfere with the operation of the company. The Nicolau does not cost the company any money so it would be a non-issue. If usapa continues on its course we will still be in separate ops. So the company would work on each contract. The Nicolau will still be there when we get a single contract.

The big thing that you have forgotten is the company could ask the bankruptcy judge to IMPOSE a contract. I believe it is an 1113 motion. That judge will not care that the east pilots don’t like the Nicolau. That judge will be required to use the other federal judge’s injunction.

Lastly judge Wake did not rule that usapa could reorder the list or use another list. The legitimate union objective was Seham’s way out that the judge gave him. Seham ignored it and lost. When the judge ask Seham in court what the legitimate objectives were Seham froze. Had no idea what they were. Those were jury instructions to determine liability. The jury decided that usapa is liable. End of story. There is no redo. To even think it means that is stunning.

Between this and the strike theory it is getting hilarious. Desperation must be setting in.

There will be no strike. The strike comm. is show for the loyal followers. Nothing more. The Nicolau has nothing to do with company survival. Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[Metroyet]

It was also ai]stipulated fact [/i] that East pilots would not ratify any CBA containing the Nicolau award due to the unfairness to East pilots.

Hardly. Nice spin attempt though. The stipulated fact that you are referring to stated the following: It was agreed that the EAST MEC BELIEVED that no contract with the NIC would pass East ratification. That's a big difference from what you're trying to pass. NOBODY knows how 5300 pilots would have voted, or what the outcome of a vote would have been. That would be impossible for anybody to answer. The Plaintiffs side agreed that the East MEC opinion was such that a contract wouldn't pass. That's it. Big deal. Irrelevant, (as usual).

 

[N924PS]

Sometime in the next 18 months our management will come to the pilots with a restructuring plan which could be a merger, bankruptcy, or a fragmentation or any combination of those. Regardless of the form the restructuring plan takes it will require a restructuring or merger agreement with USAPA with the alternative of risking liquidation and the loss of 32000 jobs.



When the company negotiates its restructuring plan with USAPA it will require ratification by majority vote of members but if it contains the Nic award as stipulated in court it would be rejected thus placing 32000 jobs at risk. Certainly saving 32000 jobs would qualify as the ultimate legitimate union objective. Judge Wake would then have the option of dissolving his injunction or risk failure of the restructuring plan putting 32000 employees out of work and the airline out of business.

The East pilots know the Nic award is not compatible with company survival and we can only hope the Nic award is rendered moot before it is too late.

underpants

My goodness. Now the noble USAPA is going to hold the 32000 employees of USAirways hostage so you can be rewarded with your "rightful" seniority.

If you think forcing the Nic Award out is going to make or break any possible restructuring deal, you are mistaken. If as some posters suggest, USAirways winds up in a deal with AMR, you can be sure APA will cast USAPA adrift.

The Nic will never be rendered moot. Binding arbitration says so, the Addington jury agreed, and so will the 9th in SFO.

By the way, did you hear that Michael Jackson died? That should put you in touch with reality!

 

[Megasnoop]

But I can guarantee you a couple of things:
1. ALPA will admit no fault. Both sides will just walk away with the MDA pilots using the payout to pay their lawyer.

2. It will have absolutely NO bearing on the Nicolau award. Zero. The Nicolau is here to stay and its a matter of when, not if, it will be implemented.

1. Then there wont be a settlement. Money is secondary to an admission the list was inaccurate. The issue is simple, were 170+ MDA pilots active or on furlough? It makes all the difference in where they end up on the NIC. A settlement just isn’t in the cards without an ALPA admission of an inaccurate list. Its probably cheaper for ALPA to admit an “honestâ€￾ mistake than to pay MDA guys.

2. It will have a HUGE bearing. Regardless of which side of the NIC your on, Nicolau RELIED on an accurate list in his award. As unpredictable as he is, he could rule anywhere from just adding them as active pilots to throwing out the entire award. Like it or not, new guy, he still has jurisdiction.

Hanging on to the dream of snapbacks and appeals is going to do nothing but cost you money and much disappointment.

No snapbacks. Expiration (per time-limited contract, negotiated by ALPA) of the concessions. The appeal will continue. Nothing you say on this chat will change our resolve.

HP
It is my understanding, having spoken to an ex MDA pilot intimately familiar with the proceedings on that front, that a precondition to any settlement would be the explicit admission from ALPA that the original list was inaccurate and therefore invalid.

I heard the exact same thing from one of the major players in MDA. They got a lot at stake not folding on this. hp, we’re getting less interested in your generalizations and legal pontifications. They border on…well, you must be bored to tears.

 

[ableoneable]

The problem is the airline industry and USAirways in particular is headed for a restructuring. Most of the airlines in their best years were earning a 3% profit margin and now face a long term 20% drop in revenue. 9/11 caused a 7% temporary drop in revenue and bankrupted all the legacy airlines except AMR.

Sometime in the next 18 months our management will come to the pilots with a restructuring plan which could be a merger, bankruptcy, or a fragmentation or any combination of those. Regardless of the form the restructuring plan takes it will require a restructuring or merger agreement with USAPA with the alternative of risking liquidation and the loss of 32000 jobs.

Judge Wake has already ruled that USAPA may change the seniority list to further a legitimate union objective as a matter of law and USAPA members may ratify or reject any new collective bargaining agreement by majority vote. It was also a stipulated fact that East pilots would not ratify any CBA containing the Nicolau award due to the unfairness to East pilots.

When the company negotiates its restructuring plan with USAPA it will require ratification by majority vote of members but if it contains the Nic award as stipulated in court it would be rejected thus placing 32000 jobs at risk. Certainly saving 32000 jobs would qualify as the ultimate legitimate union objective. Judge Wake would then have the option of dissolving his injunction or risk failure of the restructuring plan putting 32000 employees out of work and the airline out of business.

If anyone doubts the outcome of a vote to ratify a Nic CBA consider if you would expect a pilot to vote for any agreement that gives away 15+ years of his seniority. Then factor in negative votes for a restructuring deal that likely could request mitigation of expected LOA 84 pay increases plus incur more downsizing and furloughs.

Read the CLT USAPA July 7 update as they are expecting the company to come to USAPA for a "save the airline plan". USAPA is also spinning up strike preparations through the new strike preparation committee as company actions are directly leading to a major dispute and self help confrontation.

The East pilots know the Nic award is not compatible with company survival and we can only hope the Nic award is rendered moot before it is too late.

underpants

This is hilarious. Post of the year.

 

[Captain Underpants]

The Nicolau does not cost the company any money so it would be a non-issue. If usapa continues on its course we will still be in separate ops. So the company would work on each contract.

Yes I agree. The company won't risk liquidation to force the Nic. A fair seniority integration will be an absolute requirement to any save the company restructuring deals or merger agreements. No judge will risk company failure and the loss of all the employees jobs just to force an unfair pilot seniority integration.

The fear card was played here once before and can't be played again. The company shed all post retirement obligations to pilots through previous bankruptcies making company survival at a certain point in time irrelevant.

The seniority problem remains. The question is how do we fix it and smooth the way for a fair contract allowing the company to survive and be competitive.

underpants

 

[ableoneable]

Yes I agree. The company won't risk liquidation to force the Nic. A fair seniority integration will be an absolute requirement to any save the company restructuring deals or merger agreements. No judge will risk company failure and the loss of all the employees jobs just to force an unfair pilot seniority integration.

The fear card was played here once before and can't be played again. The company shed all post retirement obligations to pilots through previous bankruptcies making company survival at a certain point in time irrelevant.

The seniority problem remains. The question is how do we fix it and smooth the way for a fair contract allowing the company to survive and be competitive.

underpants

The company risks absolutely nothing when implementing the seniority list. It will be a non-event.

Though it was uncertain before the trial, it is now a certainty that should another merger occur, the Nicolau list will be the list forwarded to the merger partner's union and management for further integration.

There are no more seniority problems. Another merger just hastens the implementation of the Nicolau seniority list.

 

[Tiger 1050]

I see things are just as delusional as always... Another 10 minutes of my life wasted.