US Pilots' Labor Thread 5/26 to 6/2-- NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[hp_fa]

Management has stated publicly and in writing that they do not intend to adhere to the terms of LOA 93. Thus, ripe. Information comes from USAPA rep.

(Emphasis added by me.)

Poug,

The key phrase is "do not intend".

Let's say that I take out an ad in USA Today and say that I do not intend to pay my takes on 4/15/2010 because I am mad at the government. Can the IRS come after me now? The FBI? Any of them? No. They cannot take action based upon an anticipatory breach of an obligation because who knows, I may decide to pay my taxes on 4/15/2010 and render all my prior proclamations moot.

 

[Elevation]

The damages trial will be another ugly chapter for USAPA. I hope the east pilots realize there will be a heavy price to pay for USAPAs violation of federal law. This is very serious folks, there WILL be significant $money$ damages. Please do not take that as a threat, it is NOT. I don't want any one of us to suffer and there is still time to make amends. The last thing I want to see happen is for the east pilots to be assessed for the incompetence of their leaders.

upe

If USAPA was smart (stop laughing) they would try to work a deal out before the damages portion of the trial begins. USAPA's hubris will end up costing the average line pilot big $$, and in my opinion will be the last push needed to end there tyranny.

 

[cleardirect]

Management has stated publicly and in writing that they do not intend to adhere to the terms of LOA 93. Thus, ripe. Information comes from USAPA rep.

Then your rep is WRONG. As usual. Care predict when usapa files? I say not before Jan 1, 2010. What say you?

 

[Poug Darker]

Ok, did some research on damages.
Here it is from the court docs.
"In their motion, Plaintiffs state that they seek the
following remedies on behalf of the class:
(1) Declaration that USAPA violated the duty of fair representation;
(2) Order that USAPA take specific affirmative steps to correct injuries caused by that violation;
(3) Order that USAPA take no action reasonably likely to frustrate implementation of the Nicolau seniority list and other aspects of the Nicolau Award;
(4) Order vacating class member obligations to pay agency fees and membership dues until such time that the Company is operating under a single CBA that implements the Nicolau seniority list and other aspects of the Nicolau Award;

Although the First Amended Complaint also seeks damages for lost wages, benefits, and working conditions on behalf of the class, the Plaintiffs do not move to certify a class as to those damages issues.

(5) Order directing restitution of fees and dues paid to USAPA by class; and
(6) Award of attorneys’ fees and costs."

Count up four lines and read.

 

[Poug Darker]

Then your rep is WRONG. As usual. Care predict when usapa files? I say not before Jan 1, 2010. What say you?

Hey man, lighten up! I'm just relaying the information I gleaned from my rep.
He seemed to be sincere. I didn't hook him up to a lie detector machine or look to see if his eyes dialated while he spoke, but the man is an ex-marine. 'Nuff said for me.

 

[cleardirect]

Ok, did some research on damages.
Here it is from the court docs.
"In their motion, Plaintiffs state that they seek the
following remedies on behalf of the class:
(1) Declaration that USAPA violated the duty of fair representation;
(2) Order that USAPA take specific affirmative steps to correct injuries caused by that violation;
(3) Order that USAPA take no action reasonably likely to frustrate implementation of the Nicolau seniority list and other aspects of the Nicolau Award;
(4) Order vacating class member obligations to pay agency fees and membership dues until such time that the Company is operating under a single CBA that implements the Nicolau seniority list and other aspects of the Nicolau Award;

Although the First Amended Complaint also seeks damages for lost wages, benefits, and working conditions on behalf of the class, the Plaintiffs do not move to certify a class as to those damages issues.

(5) Order directing restitution of fees and dues paid to USAPA by class; and
(6) Award of attorneys’ fees and costs."

Count up four lines and read.

Remedies, Damages. Two different things. Two different trials.

 

[Poug Darker]

(Emphasis added by me.)

Poug,

The key phrase is "do not intend".

Let's say that I take out an ad in USA Today and say that I do not intend to pay my takes on 4/15/2010 because I am mad at the government. Can the IRS come after me now? The FBI? Any of them? No. They cannot take action based upon an anticipatory breach of an obligation because who knows, I may decide to pay my taxes on 4/15/2010 and render all my prior proclamations moot.

All I know is what was relayed to me...what was stated was that if there is written evidence that the company will breach the contract, a grievance (not arbitration!) may be filed when the declaration occurs.
I don't know what law book that's from - I'm not a lawyer. This is what was told to me - that the filing will occur soon.
Hey, it's a GOOD thing for all....why are you all trampling on this? Oh,....are you management?

 

[Poug Darker]

Remedies, Damages. Two different things. Two different trials.

First, I can make things bold, too:
Although the First Amended Complaint also seeks damages for lost wages, benefits, and working conditions on behalf of the class, the Plaintiffs do not move to certify a class as to those damages issues.

Same trial, different phase. If the whole of the west wasn't certified as a class for damages, only the six named plantiffs are eligible. At least, that's how I read it....

 

[Hawkhunter]

Then your rep is WRONG. As usual. Care predict when usapa files? I say not before Jan 1, 2010. What say you?

My guess is Feb 1, 2010. First there has to be a violation which will be in Jan, 2010 when we do not get the pay increase.

 

[Poug Darker]

My first guess when I heard about this was Feb 15, when the first payroll is issued for Jan flying, showing rate of pay on an official document.
Like I've been saying, I asked the rep that very question, and posed that very scenario. His reply was that the filing is soon, and that the intent to breach can trigger a grievance filing.
All you E190 Captains out there might want to consider bidding back to the right seat Group 2 for a big raise if this thing flys. Let your F/O's have the C/O seat, and we'll bring back the furloughees to fly the F/O seats (after we win the "too many RJ's" grievance).
So much positive energy!!!

 

[cleardirect]

All I know is what was relayed to me...what was stated was that if there is written evidence that the company will breach the contract, a grievance (not arbitration!) may be filed when the declaration occurs.
I don't know what law book that's from - I'm not a lawyer. This is what was told to me - that the filing will occur soon.
Hey, it's a GOOD thing for all....why are you all trampling on this? Oh,....are you management?

OK! File a grievance. It goes to the CP. Is he going to allow an increase in wages on his own. Not likely. Vice pres flt. ops. Denied! Quarterly meeting, denied. Finally arbitration. Come on you should know how this works.

Again I go back to usapa and DOH. Are you now admitting that usapa in writting stated that they INTEND to use a semi DOH list that does not give Empire/Trump their DOH? But that was thrown out because it was not ripe.

Why do you guys not know this?

 

[cleardirect]

First, I can make things bold, too:
Although the First Amended Complaint also seeks damages for lost wages, benefits, and working conditions on behalf of the class, the Plaintiffs do not move to certify a class as to those damages issues.

Same trial, different phase. If the whole of the west wasn't certified as a class for damages, only the six named plantiffs are eligible. At least, that's how I read it....

Seham is giving the east pilot updates correct? Either he is wrong or someone is not paying attention.

The Law suit was bifurcated. The liability portion was a class action suit. Usapa fought that hard and lost. The damages portion is a separate trial. That is not a class action suit. But anyone that has been damaged can attach to that suit. That would be all of the incorrectly furloughed west pilots, plus the incorrectly downgraded captains. Approximately 300 to 400.

Do the math. 150 furloughs at about $8000 per month. $1.2 million per month times 10 months. Ouch $12 million for the furloughed guys. Another 125 captain downgrades. Call it $3000 per month $375,000 times 10 months another $3.75 million. Total 15.75 million plus legal fees and whatever else will be asked for. About 3000 good union pilots on the east. Could you expect an assessment of wow $5250 each. That should just about take care of that 35 million payment from the company on Jan 1st. Don't forget. Section 29 will get the money from all of you.

This experiment is getting expensive. $2 million to lose a DFR. $100,000 to lose the RICO suit. $700,000 to find out the pension is for sure gone. $15 million for not following the agree to procedure. That is all before usapa has done anything that a union is suppose to do. Add to that another two years for a contract. Tell me when the good part starts?

 

[RIASU_upe]

Seham is giving the east pilot updates correct? Either he is wrong or someone is not paying attention.

The Law suit was bifurcated. The liability portion was a class action suit. Usapa fought that hard and lost. The damages portion is a separate trial. That is not a class action suit. But anyone that has been damaged can attach to that suit. That would be all of the incorrectly furloughed west pilots, plus the incorrectly downgraded captains. Approximately 300 to 400.

Do the math. 150 furloughs at about $8000 per month. $1.2 million per month times 10 months. Ouch $12 million for the furloughed guys. Another 125 captain downgrades. Call it $3000 per month $375,000 times 10 months another $3.75 million. Total 15.75 million plus legal fees and whatever else will be asked for. About 3000 good union pilots on the east. Could you expect an assessment of wow $5250 each. That should just about take care of that 35 million payment from the company on Jan 1st. Don't forget. Section 29 will get the money from all of you.

This experiment is getting expensive. $2 million to lose a DFR. $100,000 to lose the RICO suit. $700,000 to find out the pension is for sure gone. $15 million for not following the agree to procedure. That is all before usapa has done anything that a union is suppose to do. Add to that another two years for a contract. Tell me when the good part starts?

Thanks for clearing that up. I was certain everyone in the class was entitled to a damage claim, but was not sure about the mechanics of how that would occur. My guess is the above group of pilots you mention is the minimum USAPA can expect to be giving damages money.

upe

 

[luvthe9]

This experiment is getting expensive. $2 million to lose a DFR. $100,000 to lose the RICO suit. $700,000 to find out the pension is for sure gone. $15 million for not following the agree to procedure. That is all before usapa has done anything that a union is suppose to do. Add to that another two years for a contract. Tell me when the good part starts?

Winning the appeal "priceless", 240 bucks for the pension well worth it.

 

[nic4us]

"In their motion, Plaintiffs state that they seek the
following remedies on behalf of the class:

(4) Order vacating class member obligations to pay agency fees and membership dues until such time that the Company is operating under a single CBA that implements the Nicolau seniority list and other aspects of the Nicolau Award;

Although the First Amended Complaint also seeks damages for lost wages, benefits, and working conditions on behalf of the class, the Plaintiffs do not move to certify a class as to those damages issues.

(5) Order directing restitution of fees and dues paid to USAPA by class; and
(6) Award of attorneys’ fees and costs."

Count up four lines and read.

I like these the best. Particularly #4.

No agency fees or dues will have every West pilot on the USAPA member in good standing list and able to participate.

Restitution of fees means those extorted under section 29 will get their money back.

Award attorney's fees means we keep our war chest in case USAPA tries anything in the future.

These three alone are a sizable sum when you consider the size of USAPA's treasury. When damages trial happens I do not expect the tens of millions being forcast by some posters, simply because USAPA did not furlough or displace anyone. Had USAPA lost the election we could still be in seperate ops and therefore, the same folks would be effected. However, If there is some evidence of a USAPA/Managment collusion rigging the staffing numbers or moving the flying, look out, because someone will owe a ton of money to the West.