US Pilots' Labor Thread 5/26 to 6/2-- NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[Megasnoop]

Then your rep is WRONG. As usual. Care predict when usapa files? I say not before Jan 1, 2010. What say you?

Clear, January 2010 works for me. After 7 years of LOA93, another 6 months is nothing. Most of us dont care if Poug Darker is right or wrong on timetable.



And since this post never made it to the board, a day late, but Ill repost,

ALPA is and always has been just a toolbox.

The tired old “just the tool box,†ALPAs “Ah shucks, your no better than your own solidarity. ALPA is YOU!†Yeah, right. Are really buying that? Then they come up with a cop-out cram-down that saves them time and money. Only ALPA president signs contract. Negotiating commitee, MEC officers only "witness." Any doubt who has control? ALPAs problems it meddles, has conflicts of interest, lazy risk-averse useless lawyers controlled by aged New York lawyers. The only bar ALPA attorneys can find is the hotel bar. Weve seen them in action. Good riddance. ALPA on “Probation†if they come back? Only 4 major airlines have gotten rid of them in the past 75 years and 2 of them brought them back. Theyre like adult acne, impossible to get rid of. You vote them back in, theyre back to stay.

I agree with NYCBUSDRVR, “Absent a merger, ALPA will not be back on this property for at least 8 to 10 years. Most of the east pilots will have to have retired in order to get enough votes, let alone cards, for ALPA to even stand a chance.â€

Therefore, I see little difference in the next merger between ALPA/ALPA and ALPA/USAPA.

Differences are huge. ALPA/USAPA brings McCaskill/Bond into play. By law the entire process done in 110 days from single carrier declaration to dispute to arbitration award, with the company required to participate. ALPA/ALPA? 18 months from Single carrier determined to NIC award, then ALPA not even presenting it for another 6 months, then ropa-doping until they were thrown off the property. ALPA/ALPA is guaranteed conflict of interest. Id rather face off with ALPA knowing their the opposition than have them stabbing me behind the back.

The Nicolau award is the rock upon which our marriage may founder. We are going to have to find a way to deal with each other if we ever want to get out from under our current contracts.

“Rock, marriage, toolbox.†Able, you sound like a certain west poster on another chat board. You give yourself away. You dont smack ALPA “upside the head†by bringing them back and laying down the law to them. After they get your dues money, they dont care. Dont be so naïve. snoop

 

[hp_fa]

Clear, January 2010 works for me. After 7 years of LOA93, another 6 months is nothing. Most of us dont care if Poug Darker is right or wrong on timetable.

Snoop,

I agree with one caveat. Assuming that Poug didn't misunderstand anything he/she was told it is unsettling that whichever Rep he/she spoke with was seemingly wrong and, accordingly, spreading incorrect information. Why do I suggest this? Because isn't incorrect information to membership part of what happened when the East MEC was being trusted for full and correct information by its members and they did not seem to get it?

 

[Megasnoop]

I like these the best. Particularly #4. No agency fees or dues will have every West pilot on the USAPA member in good standing list and able to participate. Restitution of fees means those extorted under section 29 will get their money back. Award attorney's fees means we keep our war chest in case USAPA tries anything in the future.

You got the perfect anti-union judge to go that route. Want no union at all? No one to enforce your contract or the TA? Put USAPA into BK and thats what you get, no union, Wakes perfect storm. Luckily his decisions will be reviewed by the 9th Circuit. One thing to add to the debate, we cant appeal until we have the judges final rulings. 4 or 5 months from now? Then the 1-year appeal starts. No NIC-seniority recalls, furloughing active pilots.

"Extorted." Nic4, thats a crime. Are you accusing USAPA of a crime? Flame-bait, I thought we were trying to get away from that. "Trying anything in the future?" Do you really think USAPA is goin to do anything to violate a court order? That doesnt take money, just a call to the judge.

These three alone are a sizable sum when you consider the size of USAPA's treasury. When damages trial happens I do not expect the tens of millions being forcast by some posters, simply because USAPA did not furlough or displace anyone. Had USAPA lost the election we could still be in seperate ops and therefore, the same folks would be effected.

"ten of millions" was all pi-in-the-sky hype coming out of your side. As made clear in trial, USAPA didnt stall anything. The company planned the furloughs ("right sizing") before ALPA got canned. Lacking any proof of "USAPA/Management cullusion," Wargocki isnt getting recalled any time soon. We all know USAPA didnt cullude,but believe what you want.

However, If there is some evidence of a USAPA/Managment collusion rigging the staffing numbers or moving the flying, look out, because someone will owe a ton of money to the West.

Where did that red herring come from, Nic4? USAPA and management cant even agree on what "is" is. Staffing numbers are the reason for the reduction in flying grievance and partly the RJ grievance. It would be against interest to be colluding with the company at the same time arbitrating against them on the same issue. Fact: the flying has remained proportionaly about the same since USAPA kicked ALPA off the property, at least when looking at daily aircraft utilitization. Snoop

 

[Metroyet]

Thus, ripe. Information comes from USAPA rep.

Now THAT is funny!!!

 

[Megasnoop]

Snoop,

I agree with one caveat. Assuming that Poug didn't misunderstand anything he/she was told it is unsettling that whichever Rep he/she spoke with was seemingly wrong and, accordingly, spreading incorrect information. Why do I suggest this? Because isn't incorrect information to membership part of what happened when the East MEC was being trusted for full and correct information by its members and they did not seem to get it?

hp, this is an anonymous chat board. Take it for what it is. If you want to be taken seriously and admired for all your scholarly works, get on a chat board where you have to expose your name. If you really have no dog in this fight, why not reveal yourself on one of those non-anonymous boards? Theres one out of Scottsdale that does just that, claims to be an east-west clearing house. I dont think Im allowed to mention its name on this board. You got to take all comments here for what they are, anonymous opinions and lots of gottchas (except mine). We dont know whos who. So many posts are obviously done to scare one side or the others. Without real names attached, how can anyone take any of this seriously? I can handle just about anything, except the personal attacks and flame-baiting. Using words like "extorted" might not be flame-baiting to some, but it is to me. Snooper

 

[A320 Driver]

Seham is giving the east pilot updates correct? Either he is wrong or someone is not paying attention.

The Law suit was bifurcated. The liability portion was a class action suit. Usapa fought that hard and lost. The damages portion is a separate trial. That is not a class action suit. But anyone that has been damaged can attach to that suit. That would be all of the incorrectly furloughed west pilots, plus the incorrectly downgraded captains. Approximately 300 to 400.

Do the math. 150 furloughs at about $8000 per month. $1.2 million per month times 10 months. Ouch $12 million for the furloughed guys. Another 125 captain downgrades. Call it $3000 per month $375,000 times 10 months another $3.75 million. Total 15.75 million plus legal fees and whatever else will be asked for. About 3000 good union pilots on the east. Could you expect an assessment of wow $5250 each. That should just about take care of that 35 million payment from the company on Jan 1st. Don't forget. Section 29 will get the money from all of you.

This experiment is getting expensive. $2 million to lose a DFR. $100,000 to lose the RICO suit. $700,000 to find out the pension is for sure gone. $15 million for not following the agree to procedure. That is all before usapa has done anything that a union is suppose to do. Add to that another two years for a contract. Tell me when the good part starts?

I just picked out one absurdity to deal with here. That would be Captain downgrades. I just finished going over the West displacement bids and found a total of 11 Captains downgraded to First Officer.



A320 Driver <_<

 

[hp_fa]

hp, this is an anonymous chat board. Take it for what it is. If you want to be taken seriously and admired for all your scholarly works, get on a chat board where you have to expose your name. If you really have no dog in this fight, why not reveal yourself on one of those non-anonymous boards? Theres one out of Scottsdale that does just that, claims to be an east-west clearing house. I dont think Im allowed to mention its name on this board. You got to take all comments here for what they are, anonymous opinions and lots of gottchas (except mine). We dont know whos who. So many posts are obviously done to scare one side or the others. Without real names attached, how can anyone take any of this seriously? I can handle just about anything, except the personal attacks and flame-baiting. Using words like "extorted" might not be flame-baiting to some, but it is to me. Snooper

Wow, that's what I agree with more or less agreeing with you?

 

[hp_fa]

Snoop,

I've been thinking about your response. You're right, I have no dog in the fight and I am willing to post my name as long as you agree to also do so. I'll even go first. Just let me know if you are willing to also do so.

Your call.

 

[RIASU_upe]

I just picked out one absurdity to deal with here. That would be Captain downgrades. I just finished going over the West displacement bids and found a total of 11 Captains downgraded to First Officer.
A320 Driver <_<

You're way off...I don't know the exact number but it's around 100 + captain downgrades.

Also, USAPA will be able to appeal immediately after judge Wakes issues the remedy sometime in June. Someone else mentioned this would not take place until the Fall. Be that as it may, it makes no difference how long this takes, the ultimate price will have been paid by the east pilots. There are no winners here except for the attorneys and the Company.

upe

 

[RIASU_upe]

Winning the appeal "priceless", 240 bucks for the pension well worth it.

The scary part about that is you actually believe it. USAPA, single handedly, will set legal case precedent for successfully overturning a final and binding arbitration................................................

The courts are just NOT going to allow USAPA to turn an important part of our legal system upside down because you are not happy with the result. Ripeness, jurisdiction, jury instructions, union right to bargain, whatever the appealing argument might be, will FAIL. Write that down, seal it in an envelope marked upe told you so, and enjoy your pension.

upe

 

[A320 Driver]

You're way off...I don't know the exact number but it's around 100 + captain downgrades.

Also, USAPA will be able to appeal immediately after judge Wakes issues the remedy sometime in June. Someone else mentioned this would not take place until the Fall. Be that as it may, it makes no difference how long this takes, the ultimate price will have been paid by the east pilots. There are no winners here except for the attorneys and the Company.

upe

Show me.

I read the displacement bid. It's posted on Pilot Loop. 11 Captains downgraded to F/O. That is less than the East downgrades.

A320 Driver <_<

 

[Megasnoop]

Snoop,

I've been thinking about your response. You're right, I have no dog in the fight and I am willing to post my name as long as you agree to also do so. I'll even go first. Just let me know if you are willing to also do so.

Your call.

Easy call, hp. I still have to work here. You claim you dont. I dont JS, so your west crew cant deny me a ride, but the company might take offense to my remarks. Im sure you understand. But go first, by all means. If I fail to RIK, then Im just another low life Eastie. I will promise when Clear, Nic4, Able, Lynyrd come out of the closet, I will to. Steve B

 

[hp_fa]

Actually, I forgot about the Company and their reaction, which is no big deal to me but it is rightfully a problem for you. So, your call. Just to show I am not a total loser, the first name is John, and JS are the initials. If you want to stop here that is fine because this is not intended to cost you employment.

John

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Show me.

I read the displacement bid. It's posted on Pilot Loop. 11 Captains downgraded to F/O. That is less than the East downgrades.

A320 Driver <_<

The original bid last summer/fall had 138 captain downgrades. Then in December they downgraded 12 more in an adjustment bid. The net from the adjustment might be 11, I think one previously downgraded captain got his slot back in Phoenix.

It's not easy to see on the hub, they have it all discombobulated with all their little mistakes and so forth. Imagine that. I haven't seen pilot loop so I don't know what it shows there.

 

[A320 Driver]

The original bid last summer/fall had 138 captain downgrades. Then in December they downgraded 12 more in an adjustment bid. The net from the adjustment might be 11, I think one previously downgraded captain got his slot back in Phoenix.

It's not easy to see on the hub, they have it all discombobulated with all their little mistakes and so forth. Imagine that. I haven't seen pilot loop so I don't know what it shows there.

A movement seat to seat between aircraft is NOT a downgrade. A320 Captain goes to B-737 Captain is NOT a downgrade. That's a displacement. It might hurt your feelings but not your pocketbook. I was counting Captains moving to F/Os.

I could be wrong, been wrong before. I'm just counting pilots based on what the company put out in a displacement bid for 08. I'd copy the bid here but it has the pilot's names on it and I don't think that's right.

A320 Driver B)