US Pilots Labor Thread 1/28 to 2/3

[Megasnoop]

Snoop,

You make a bold statement, time to back up your claim. Here is the resolution. Point out the fighting words and misstatements. Where do you think that you are being “attackedâ€￾? Please be specific. You made the charge, prove your case. What part of this would prevent any other BPR from passing it?

So you would only drop “members in good standingâ€￾. Meaning that if they would pay a little extortion and protection money they would be dropped from the suit. Who is the criminal now?

Clear, some truth serum. The WHEREASes and THEREFORE werent too bad, but you didnt post the BACKGROUND, filled with misstatements and fighting words. Some of the total misrepresentations and falsehoods were pointed out to Brice before and during the open meeting. Whoever wrote this for him should have told him which parts were false, which were true. Imagine his embarassment when confronted with the facts. Jon should have briefed him where reality ended and fantasy began. Here are some of the untrue pieces. Brice needs some new handlers.

BACKGROUND:
Shortly after the complaint was filed, USAPA’s lead counsel Lee Seham directly contacted each of the individual defendants in the case (despite the fact that they were all represented by attorneys),

If that happened, you guys would have been trying to get Seham disbarred for unethical behavior.

The settlement agreements would have required the defendants to pay USAPA large sums of money, admit to crimes that they did not commit, and to promise to perjure themselves in a court of law by testifying against their fellow pilots.

5 Cents a minute a large sum of money? Promise to perjure themselves? He (or whoever wrote it) accused our attorney of attempting to suborn perjury. Thats fighting words.

None of the individual defendants succumbed to the settlements, instead shelling out thousands of dollars for attorney’s fees.

whoever wrote it for Brice failed to tell him who had already "succumbed" to a settlement.

On July 11th, 2008, Judge Martin Reidinger ordered that the lawsuit be dismissed with prejudice, meaning that USAPA could not bring this claim, or a similar claim, before the court again.

Dismissed from the Federal court, due to jurisdiction, not merit. No such dismissal in NC courts.

The issue is now before the Appellate court.

That parts true. And thats where this all could end if your "Cactus Remaining" would just join, pay dues, pay 5 cents a minute.

I dont really have much problem with the WHEREASes, but
RESOLUTION:
WHEREAS many of the defendants are dues-paying USAPA members, and

"Many?" I doubt it. Then all they have to do is pay the 5 cents/minute. Joining USAPA and agreeing to our rules pretty much says you wont do it again. I think our acceptance of them as members should be ok to get them off the hook.

WHEREAS the Labor Management Disclosure and Reporting Act (LMRDA) provides union members the federally-mandated right to criticize their own union,

Ill say again, the LMRDA does provide union members with free speech rights, but these guys werent members when they were doing their phone calls, sabotaging a union they didnt belong to.

BTW, even if we lose the appeal, that only ends the Federal Court case. Dealing with a NC jury in state court is another issue.
http://usapasnoop.net

 

[Tiger 1050]

Official capacity: Member in good standing (is that official enough?), present at an open meeting. If you were a member in good standing, you could have been there too. Minutes will be posted after transcribed, nothing abnormal about that. Brice was there. He can communicate his displeasure on his own. Only he ought to be accurate and not let others who werent there write his material. Since you appeal to be a non member, whether you trust Brice or Mark to represent you is irrelevant. Neither has the votes to overrule the majority. But at least youll have input.

http://[email protected]

Hi Snoop,
I made an assumption regarding the open/closed sessions. My east pilot friend and I had a lengthy discussion and he set me straight on that. Needless to say there is always going to be two interpretations of what and how it went down. My point is that just because Brice is a west pilot does not necessarily mean I trust him and all the communique he will put out. I am an objector. As such I understand that I cannot vote or have a voice in this. Right now I am not convinced it would be other than futile. Things will change though and I'll keep an open mind. Fair enough?

 

[nic4us]

Does anyone know?

1. Can the cactus 18, at the appellate level introduce counter charges?

No. An appellate court does not take testimony, but rather reviews the record from the trial court (which may or may not include testimony). The appellate court can affirm, overturn or remand the decision ot the trial court with appropriate instructions to the trial court.

Thanks, I assumed as much.

 

[bigbusdrvr]

1. what future expansion are you talking about?
2. you assume there are not any east coast FO commuters
3. you assume everybody bought a house in the last 4 years
4. 500 captain bids in phx will take 7 years enjoy the wait.

I :wub: Nic

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Ill respond in order:

1. I cant predict the future, airline expansion of bases or contraction is inevitable, I just thinking "if it happens" it will be open bid under Nic...
2. East coast f/o commuters to the west will be able to bid east coast, this will be good for them...
3. I thought most west f/o's were 4-8 yrs seniority, I assumed they would want a Capt bid in PHX vs commuting to east coast bases for upgrade, possibly a wrong assumption on my part....
4. I didnt mean It would take 500 capt, bids to get to PHX, I meant the next 500 will be awarded to east pilots living on the west coast, with the horspower under Nic to hold a PHX bid

ps: weve unfortunatly gotten all to associated with "waiting" in the east.....

 

[N924PS]

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Ill respond in order:

4. I didnt mean It would take 500 capt, bids to get to PHX, I meant the next 500 will be awarded to east pilots living on the west coast, with the horspower under Nic to hold a PHX bid

West Pilots: Don't be concerned. There are no where near 500 East pilots living on the west coast. Most are senior enough, even under Nic, to fly the higher paying wide body international fleet. So unless the A320 pay is upped considerably, I don't think you will see a mass exodus from PHL/CLT to PHX.

Probably a moot point anyway, since it is rather unlikely there will be a joint contract in the near future, or any kind of system wide growth that would create any openings.

However, one can only hope once Congress passes the Stimulus legislation, it will light the fuse for the ecomomy and the airline industry will once again flourish with the rising tide.

 

[Pi brat]

1. I doubt it. Asking the question shows a lack of understanding about how courts work. But they can probably do #3 if they want, in State court. They could escalate this while USAPA is trying to put an end to it. Join, pay your dues, pay $.05/minute for bogus phone calls, get removed from the RICO. One West pilot already did it. Meanwhile, RICO case still alive and well in NC court. Let them knock themselves out with SLAPP. But theyre SLAPPing in NC, with NC juries. I was based down there years ago. Again, good luck.

2. Weird Q from a most likely non-member. But to answer your Q, none were ALPO Reps or even ALPO freeloaders when ALPO got voted of the island. Funny you bring that up. Seems that conspiracy fantasy got USAPA non-members and former ALPOphyles Jack Stephan and Kim Snider deposed. I dont think any of our BPRs were ever ALPO Reps.

3. See #1. The problem with the RICO wasnt the charges. It was the venue.
http://snooper.edu


Back to Tiger1050:

Thanks for setting the record straight, PHX. I forgot about that. Didnt we also hear paying back the phone calls at 5 Cents a minute? I guess LeCarre forgot about that.



Official capacity: Member in good standing (is that official enough?), present at an open meeting. If you were a member in good standing, you could have been there too. Minutes will be posted after transcribed, nothing abnormal about that. Brice was there. He can communicate his displeasure on his own. Only he ought to be accurate and not let others who werent there write his material. Since you appeal to be a non member, whether you trust Brice or Mark to represent you is irrelevant. Neither has the votes to overrule the majority. But at least youll have input.

http://[email protected]

Snoper,

One of the CLT reps was a former ALPA Capt rep., just not at the time of USAPA's election.

The problem with resolution, as I understand it, is that it would give the impression of admitting guilt. Many of the guys just made web posts, it did not rise to the level accused. It needs to be dropped.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Snoper,

One of the CLT reps was a former ALPA Capt rep., just not at the time of USAPA's election.

The problem with resolution, as I understand it, is that it would give the impression of admitting guilt. Many of the guys just made web posts, it did not rise to the level accused. It needs to be dropped.

Amen brotha!!!!

 

[bigbusdrvr]

West Pilots: Don't be concerned. There are no where near 500 East pilots living on the west coast. Most are senior enough, even under Nic, to fly the higher paying wide body international fleet. So unless the A320 pay is upped considerably, I don't think you will see a mass exodus from PHL/CLT to PHX.

Probably a moot point anyway, since it is rather unlikely there will be a joint contract in the near future, or any kind of system wide growth that would create any openings.

However, one can only hope once Congress passes the Stimulus legislation, it will light the fuse for the ecomomy and the airline industry will once again flourish with the rising tide.

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I dont know how many east pilots there are still living on the west coast, suffice it to say my east coast self is tired of commuting. Ill be biding PHX as soon as the Nic is implemented.

Housing is plentiful, weather is good, flt attndants are young.......

I havent driven to work in 20+ years......

Since all the west guys ahead of me under the Nic are already Capt., Im only competing with the "No where near 500 pilots" on the west coast.....

The question you have to answer me is if there not flying the Wide body to Europe now, why would they pass up a PHX bid to fly what they are flying now....They could hold wide body now but dont, they want to minimize the commute, so wouldnt they just really minimize the commute????

Please tell me Im wrong, Im tired of commuting. I really want to live in PHX an drive to work....

 

[Tiger 1050]

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, flt attndants are young.......

LOL!!!

Although not all of them...

 

[bigbusdrvr]

LOL!!!

Although not all of them...

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Ok, wishful thinking on my part, then again young is realitive......

 

[N924PS]

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I dont know how many east pilots there are still living on the west coast, suffice it to say my east coast self is tired of commuting. Ill be biding PHX as soon as the Nic is implemented.

The question you have to answer me is if there not flying the Wide body to Europe now, why would they pass up a PHX bid to fly what they are flying now....They could hold wide body now but dont, they want to minimize the commute, so wouldnt they just really minimize the commute????

You are probably correct. Those that are currently flying a B737/A320 in the East system will most likely bid in to PHX as soon as the opportunity exists. Which may be some time in the distant future no matter which way the Nic swings.

While I haven't gone name by name through the roster to guesstimate the number, I think it would be less than 100 Captains and F/O's. Of the original 700 plus PSA pilots from the 1988 merger, most have retired by now. And many have relocated happily to the East over the years since the 1988 merger and multiple base closings.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

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Please tell me Im wrong, Im tired of commuting. I really want to live in PHX an drive to work....

Yep - being able to do that sure is nice. For me, it's 9 miles to the (paid) parking lot and 9 miles back home. And the gals at USAA insurance just can't believe it when I tell them that I only have to do that 3 or 4 times a month.

Sure, there's going to be some shuffling around when the NIC gets in place - that is inevitable. But there are many here (PHX and LAS) who commute in from points east of the Mississippi. Going westbound to get home would be a pleasure for many of these folks. The numbers of desired base changes between eastyz and westyz would not be all that disparate - only a small number of unfortunates would likely be forced to displace themselves from their current base.

What's really sad is the few - who I feel are making most of the noise - and who choose to ignore the reality of the situation. All this "capture attrition" and "seniority is not for sale" chest thumping is being done by what is, in essence, a very minor core group of eastyz. One day, the majority will realize just what true sacrifices have been forced upon us all.

Just for starters, this group has let at least $122 million slip through its fingers. It will likely be another $122,000,000.00 for this year. Who knows what 2010 will bring. You hear very little from usapa about this - about the money. They are not willing to tell their members that DOH stupidity is costing the pilot group hundreds of millions of dollars. That is real money that will never end up in any of our pockets. Poof. Gone.

I guess money means nothing to these folks. The extra years of commuting being done by gents such as yourself mean nothing to them. The lives they are trying to ruin with their frivolous lawsuits mean nothing to them. What is really most important to this leadership is that we all believe and all abide by the usapa mantra: "ye shall all be good union pilots."

What they can't seem to fathom is that what they're actually turning us in to is "poor union pilots."

 

[BoeingBoy]

The big omission is that every East captain that bids PHX/LAS leaves a captain vacancy in BOS/LGA/PHL/DCA/CLT. I assume that there are a few out west that would love to shorten their commute or fly the widebodies by bidding back east.

It's a gross oversimplification to say that one group or another would "take all the captain vacancies" in the newly available for bid bases. No one knows how it will all shake out till it actually shakes out.

Jim

 

[ClueByFour]

BTW, even if we lose the appeal, that only ends the Federal Court case. Dealing with a NC jury in state court is another issue.

Yeah. That you will also lose.

See, here is the thing--if there was anything to this, the assistant US Attorney in NC and the postal inspectors would have been on the case. That they are not is indicative. I know, having been involved in a similar situation in that very federal District that the US Attorney's office knows how telecommunications law works.

That leaves you with a questionable cause of action that was not charged criminally, dismissed from federal court, and presumably lost on appeal. At 5 cents a minute, you are trying to rip someone off with a settlement offer (or stupid enough to actually be paying that much). This was a bully move, pure and simple. Next time, get a better lawyer. Or choose a better battle.

That, and if Seeham thought he had a better chance in front of a state jury, he (presumably) would have taken it. You also assume (as our friendly Bus Driver from NYC did incorrectly last summer) that it'll get to a jury.

As an aside, if you really feel like the anonymous webboard evidence that Seeham put forth is good, I'd suggest that you anonymize your postings here at the IP level and have used a throwaway account for registration. See the irony? If you believe USAPA has a case, then you also believe that the Cactus 18's counsel can track your butt down for discovery and go after USAPA for malicious prosecution (I'm assuming Barratry, in North Carolina, is reserved for maritime activities).

 

[nycbusdriver]

I guess money means nothing to these folks.

Well, that's not quite true. The beatings we've taken on the east over the past 7 years have given every one of us much food for thought and the lesson taught us is that:

While money is not "nothing", as you say, it's certainly not everything, as you seem to believe by your post.