US Pilots' Labor Thread 5/26 to 6/2-- NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[BoeingBoy]

Jim, are you gonna make me do this again?

What did I tell Tiger...only the 170's were operating at MDA.

And my correction wasn't aimed at you, but rather at someone else.

(AWA had no scope so Mesa had CRJ9's out west) The E170 is a 70-76 seat aircraft depending on configuration. For the sake of argument, Mesa was not a player in this on the AAA side of the house yet. Scope relief was given for up to 93 aircraft "larger than 50 seats, and up to 86 seats"......this was not the E190...the options for the E190 which Republic acquired via MDA were never addressed by the MEC while they were busy giving MDA away and calling it a seperate operation in accord with the company.

This allowed RJet to fly the MDA planes...(it also allowed for Mesa's CR9's in the AAA system)

Actually HP had scope - it just allowed larger "RJ's" than East's scope. As for the rest, we're obviously talking about two different agreements. First came the agreement which allowed the 170's to be sold to any affiliate (which could have included Mesa at the time) and the other is the TA which covered the general scope relief which made the Mesa 900's (and similiar sized planes) legal under the East contract.

Under the first of those two, I believe that sale of potential 190 orders under certain conditions was allowed but I'm not at home with access to all the documents so that may have been potential 175's instead.

What I find so typical is the uproar over a simple question addressed to Poug Darker - if he/she considers those who negotiated the various changes "rocket scientists" (which I took to be a slam since they were neither scientists nor working on a rocket), what does he/she consider those who voted to ratify those changes? I passed no judgement either way, just asked the question.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

A 20% pay raise? You are smoking if you think Poug will give up a 20% raise.

What's the rush? With separate ops neither side has gained or lost at the expense to the other.

The company won't give anything to a fairly large group of pilots on the east. Maybe the group 2 pilots would get that percentage of raise with parity on the west, but the group 1 and A330 pilots will get nothing at all from parity. And that doesn't even take into account how the company will treat our red-headed step children, the E190 pilots. They are CERTAINLY not going to bring tme to parity with group 2/west rates.

So, what it boils down to is that the folks who are bearing the brunt of the perceived 20% are the very group that was hit hardest by the Nicolau abomination. If they want to hold out, I will happily hang in with my hourly rates right now slightly higher than any west pilot's. And the A330 guys are even further ahead paywise.

Even if USAPA loses on the inevitable LOA 93 snapback grievance next year, they at least acknowledge that the pay freeze expires. That leaves the east with the automatic 3% open-ended raises that LOA 84 has been working on in the background. And, although it's not much, the east will keep getting those 3% raises on May 1 of each year.

 

[N924PS]

[quote name='nycbusdriver' date='May 31 2009, 08:22 AM' post='688558'
So, what it boils down to is that the folks who are bearing the brunt of the perceived 20% are the very group that was hit hardest by the Nicolau abomination. If they want to hold out, I will happily hang in with my hourly rates right now slightly higher than any west pilot's. And the A330 guys are even further ahead paywise.
[/quote]

While you may be happy to hang with your B767 rate with the international pay premium added, many East pilots are sick and tired of the LOA 93 rates after 5 years. With retirement accounts decimated by the economy, monthly expenses increasing with no commensurate cost of living adjustments, the time for a raise is long overdue.

Perhaps when USAPA loses yet another round in court, even the hold outs will realize it's time to close ranks with the West and get a contract and move on.

 

[Poug Darker]

N924PS.."many East pilots are sick and tired of the LOA 93 rates after 5 years. With retirement accounts decimated by the economy, monthly expenses increasing with no commensurate cost of living adjustments, the time for a raise is long overdue...it's time to close ranks with the West and get a contract and move on."

Patience, Grasshopper. The tide of fortune may be changing. You have spent many moons sacrificing, but the time of reward is almost at hand. Let the learned ones who struggle for our collective cause, pursue the path to paycheck enlightenment. Soon you will see the fruit of your labors.
Peace and wellness to you.

 

[cleardirect]

N924PS.."many East pilots are sick and tired of the LOA 93 rates after 5 years. With retirement accounts decimated by the economy, monthly expenses increasing with no commensurate cost of living adjustments, the time for a raise is long overdue...it's time to close ranks with the West and get a contract and move on."

Patience, Grasshopper. The tide of fortune may be changing. You have spent many moons sacrificing, but the time of reward is almost at hand. Let the learned ones who struggle for our collective cause, pursue the path to paycheck enlightenment. Soon you will see the fruit of your labors.
Peace and wellness to you.

Are you thinking about snapbacks? As Kirby said ZERO chance. Even usapa has admitted they are going to have to go to arbitration. Figure the timeline. usapa can not file until Jan 1, 2010 at the earliest. Going through the process you might see a decision sometime summer next year, that is IF usapa wins. With no clear language in LOA 93 the union has the case to make. The company is going to fight that hard.

usapa is going to appeal the DFR. A contract will not come until that appeal is finished. Median time for that in the ninth circuit. 18 months. So your pay raises are at least a year and a half to two years away. That is a lot of patience. No fruits for a while.

In about a month we will see what the judge has for remedies. That could be the path to fruits and enlightenment.

 

[Poug Darker]

USAPA will be filing the grievance over LOA 93 in weeks, not months, as management has, in no uncertain terms, stated that they will be abrogating the contract as amended. It is on the front burner and should be decided relatively quickly as no lofty concepts of existentialistic intergalactic uncomprehensible legalese is involved, but rather one simple sentence and what it portends.

 

[Elevation]

That leaves the east with the automatic 3% open-ended raises that LOA 84 has been working on in the background. And, although it's not much, the east will keep getting those 3% raises on May 1 of each year.

Probably won't be enough to cover the Seham/Cleary assessment coming from the damages trial this fall. This is going to get good.

 

[cleardirect]

USAPA will be filing the grievance over LOA 93 in weeks, not months, as management has, in no uncertain terms, stated that they will be abrogating the contract as amended. It is on the front burner and should be decided relatively quickly as no lofty concepts of existentialistic intergalactic uncomprehensible legalese is involved, but rather one simple sentence and what it portends.

What was that term we learned during the DFR trial? The one that usapa tried several times???? Oh yea. RIPENESS!!!

Call you rep and ask. Get the facts before you start picking your fruits. Ripeness! The company has done or not done anything yet. Until the company violates LOA 93 by in your opinion not paying the new rates they are not guilty of anything. File now and see what happens.

Your logic just blew Seham's argument in the Breeger case and the Addington case. Seham's theory was that usapa could not be in violation until their DOH list was in a contract. So what is it? Can someone be in violation for what they intend to do? The company intends not to pay. usapa intends to implement DOH. So what is it?

The company can say anything they want right now. They can tell usapa everyday that they are not going to pay. But on Jan 1 2010 they change the rates they are not in violation. So until the company is in violation or what usapa considers violation no grievance can be filed. That is 8 months before it can be filed. How long does it take to go through the process? Schedule an arbitrator then wait for a ruling. Most ruling take about 60-90 days to get an answer.

So call your rep get the facts, settle back and wait at least 12 -18 months to find out that you will not be getting snapbacks.

Really! Why is it that the east guys don’t know any of this? Why is it the rookies have to educate you long time union airline pilots about basics. Could it be that your union leaders are lying to you to keep you in line? Take the time learn the facts.

 

[Poug Darker]

Management has stated publicly and in writing that they do not intend to adhere to the terms of LOA 93. Thus, ripe. Information comes from USAPA rep.

 

[ClueByFour]

Management has stated publicly and in writing that they do not intend to adhere to the terms of LOA 93. Thus, ripe. Information comes from USAPA rep.

Would those be the same folks who said that they could beat a Nicolau-based DFR suit? How'd that work?

 

[Poug Darker]

Obviously, it didn't work out to many folk's satisfaction - yet. However, that has absolutely nothing to do with LOA 93. Different issue, different law, different forum, different odds. IMO, better odds.
If the east wins the grievance, it will be a good thing for both east & west as it might get management to the negotiating table and really negotiate, ya know.

 

[RIASU_upe]

Are you thinking about snapbacks? As Kirby said ZERO chance. Even usapa has admitted they are going to have to go to arbitration. Figure the timeline. usapa can not file until Jan 1, 2010 at the earliest. Going through the process you might see a decision sometime summer next year, that is IF usapa wins. With no clear language in LOA 93 the union has the case to make. The company is going to fight that hard.

usapa is going to appeal the DFR. A contract will not come until that appeal is finished. Median time for that in the ninth circuit. 18 months. So your pay raises are at least a year and a half to two years away. That is a lot of patience. No fruits for a while.

In about a month we will see what the judge has for remedies. That could be the path to fruits and enlightenment.

I have heard the appeal will be fast tracked and likely decided within the next 12 months. What will be very interesting is if judge Wake removes NIC as the source of conflict by allowing the Company to use it immediately. My bet is just an injunction forcing USAPA to include NIC with any TA, BUT I heard judge Wake in the courtroom comment that eliminating NIC as the pivotal roadblock to a joint contract is a possibility. The Company involvement with the remedy has suspicious written all over it. Look for a remedy that allows the Company to capture the "synergy" of a combined operation without paying the pilots a dime...basically having their cake and eating it too. A remedy fashioned to benefit the Company is a stretch but not by much considering the dilemma. A remedy that includes implementing NIC and allowing the Company to cross-utilize east/west metal (e.g. east crews can fly west metal and vice versa) will essentially eliminate ALL leverage USAPA has over the Company. I believe most if not all of the "synergy" dollars are from increased aircraft utilization in each others backyard.

The damages trial will be another ugly chapter for USAPA. I hope the east pilots realize there will be a heavy price to pay for USAPAs violation of federal law. This is very serious folks, there WILL be significant $money$ damages. Please do not take that as a threat, it is NOT. I don't want any one of us to suffer and there is still time to make amends. The last thing I want to see happen is for the east pilots to be assessed for the incompetence of their leaders.

upe

 

[Poug Darker]

How much damage did those 6 guys take? Legal fees aside, I'm guessing: nuthin'.

 

[Pylit]

Such bad vibes here.
Repeat after me:
I will be positive.
I will think good thoughts.
It's Sunday - show some of that (insert your flavor of religion Here) love to your fellow man/woman.
Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

 

[RIASU_upe]

How much damage did those 6 guys take? Legal fees aside, I'm guessing: nuthin'.

Listen very carefully here, it's not just about those six guys; AOL represents the west CLASS. Therefore, damage amounts will be awarded to the CLASS. Something USAPA conveniently overlooks, which is surprising seeing they fought so hard against the class certification by Judge Wake.

upe