US Pilots' Labor Thread 5/26 to 6/2-- NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[Flybywire]

A movement seat to seat between aircraft is NOT a downgrade. A320 Captain goes to B-737 Captain is NOT a downgrade. That's a displacement. It might hurt your feelings but not your pocketbook. I was counting Captains moving to F/Os.

I could be wrong, been wrong before. I'm just counting pilots based on what the company put out in a displacement bid for 08. I'd copy the bid here but it has the pilot's names on it and I don't think that's right.

A320 Driver B)

Look a little more, Displacement Bid 2008-1 Rev 4

 

[Freighterguynow]

A remedy that includes implementing NIC and allowing the Company to cross-utilize east/west metal (e.g. east crews can fly west metal and vice versa) will essentially eliminate ALL leverage USAPA has over the Company. I believe most if not all of the "synergy" dollars are from increased aircraft utilization in each others backyard.

All this specifically banned by the AFA TA.

Any East FA want to chime in here about the West's plan to raid your block hours and move them west?

How about " essentially eliminating ALL leverage" AFA "has over the Company"

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

A movement seat to seat between aircraft is NOT a downgrade. A320 Captain goes to B-737 Captain is NOT a downgrade. That's a displacement. It might hurt your feelings but not your pocketbook. I was counting Captains moving to F/Os.

I could be wrong, been wrong before. I'm just counting pilots based on what the company put out in a displacement bid for 08. I'd copy the bid here but it has the pilot's names on it and I don't think that's right.

A320 Driver B)

I know, an A320 captain to 737 captain is not a downgrade. The fact is that 150 captains are now flying in the right seat. Some of them had not been trained yet, but possessed an awarded captain position. There were only about 15 or 20 of those though, as a ballpark figure, from what I remember.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

All this specifically banned by the AFA TA.

Any East FA want to chime in here about the West's plan to raid your block hours and move them west?

How about " essentially eliminating ALL leverage" AFA "has over the Company"

Who put AFA in this possible situation?

 

[nic4us]

A movement seat to seat between aircraft is NOT a downgrade. A320 Captain goes to B-737 Captain is NOT a downgrade. That's a displacement. It might hurt your feelings but not your pocketbook. I was counting Captains moving to F/Os.

I could be wrong, been wrong before. I'm just counting pilots based on what the company put out in a displacement bid for 08. I'd copy the bid here but it has the pilot's names on it and I don't think that's right.

A320 Driver B)

A320Driver,

October 2008 compared to June 2009 bid the numbers are A320 516-480=36, 737 130-86=44 757 91-71=20.

So a total loss of 100 captain seats between those timeframes. I believe more were lost just prior to october 2008 because I believe the original A320 fleet numbered around 550 captain seats summer 2008. So that would be another 34 for a total of 134.

These numbers ore directly out of PBS cover letters and the oldest one is October 2008 so I could not go back further. Also, it is the numbers of bidders, so the total changes slightly as people come off and on LTD and other LOAs.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

A320Driver,

October 2008 compared to June 2009 bid the numbers are A320 516-480=36, 737 130-86=44 757 91-71=20.

So a total loss of 100 captain seats between those timeframes. I believe more were lost just prior to october 2008 because I believe the original A320 fleet numbered around 550 captain seats summer 2008. So that would be another 34 for a total of 134.

These numbers ore directly out of PBS cover letters and the oldest one is October 2008 so I could not go back further. Also, it is the numbers of bidders, so the total changes slightly as people come off and on LTD and other LOAs.

And that 134 number jives with the 15 or so captain bid holders who had not been trained yet, for the 150 total lost positions, who would obviously not show up as bidders in pbs cover sheets.

To get an accurate number of downgrades, one really has to look at and cross reference several sources, such as the bid itslelf, pbs bidders, training dates, etc.

Actually, come to think of it, the best way to cut through it all is to look at the front page of the actual displacement bid packages. The first big bid package last year showed the net captain positions as -138, and the adjustment package showed -12.

 

[hp_fa]

Well it looks to me like you let YOUR alligator mouth run away with your hummingbird arse

Bob, he did raise a valid point and what he potentially can lose is far worse than what I could lose so I accept that. I simply just don't like folks bringing up the anonymity issue if they are also doing the same thing and that is why I reacted as I did. So, I accept his position because of the possible consequences.

 

[flybynite]

All this specifically banned by the AFA TA.

Any East FA want to chime in here about the West's plan to raid your block hours and move them west?

How about " essentially eliminating ALL leverage" AFA "has over the Company"

I'm more than willing to chime in if you would be more specific. I'm not sure what you're talking about. ....Sorry, been out here flying and can't check this damn website all the time.

 

[spike99]

And that 134 number jives with the 15 or so captain bid holders who had not been trained yet, for the 150 total lost positions, who would obviously not show up as bidders in pbs cover sheets.

To get an accurate number of downgrades, one really has to look at and cross reference several sources, such as the bid itslelf, pbs bidders, training dates, etc.

Actually, come to think of it, the best way to cut through it all is to look at the front page of the actual displacement bid packages. The first big bid package last year showed the net captain positions as -138, and the adjustment package showed -12.

And how exactly is USAPA/East responsible for any of these downgrades/furloughs.

 

[luvn737s]

And how exactly is USAPA/East responsible for any of these downgrades/furloughs.

Do you suppose a joint contract and one seniority list would have had any effect on who was furloughed/downgraded? Did USAPA's incessant foot-dragging have any effect on the production of a joint contract? Did USAPA's decision to ignore the Nicolau list and produce one of it's own affect the negotiation of a joint contract?

Connecting the dots is not that difficult.

USAPA folks like to pretend to be union fat-cats, but the serving the membership thing - not so much.

 

[spike99]

Do you suppose a joint contract and one seniority list would have had any effect on who was furloughed/downgraded? Did USAPA's incessant foot-dragging have any effect on the production of a joint contract? Did USAPA's decision to ignore the Nicolau list and produce one of it's own affect the negotiation of a joint contract?

Connecting the dots is not that difficult.

USAPA folks like to pretend to be union fat-cats, but the serving the membership thing - not so much.

Do you really think there would have been a joint contract with the NIC attached? Was USAPA the initial foot dragger? Is there any historical data to support the premise this management team would have expeditiously negotiated any contract? Any example would be appreciated. Suppositions don't really count, and I'm pretty sure they can't be proven in a court.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

And how exactly is USAPA/East responsible for any of these downgrades/furloughs.

I was simply clarifying how many there have been for another poster who thought there were only 11 downgrades.

I think usapa is an unethical, underhanded organization though, I've made no secret of my opinion in that regard.

 

[exB717Flyer]

And how exactly is USAPA/East responsible for any of these downgrades/furloughs.

You're not looking at this correctly. USAPA has been found guilty of illegally favoring the East over the West and the jury at the damages trial will take that as the starting point. The furloughs didn't start until after USAPA took over. Are you "supremely confident" in Mr. Seham's ability to convince the jury the West has suffered no harm?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Do you really think there would have been a joint contract with the NIC attached? Was USAPA the initial foot dragger? Is there any historical data to support the premise this management team would have expeditiously negotiated any contract? Any example would be appreciated. Suppositions don't really count, and I'm pretty sure they can't be proven in a court.

And the DFR suit had no merit. Look, I don't know how the remedy and damages phases are going to play out. But I have seen more than a little evidence of misplaced usapa confidence.

 

[spike99]

Well usapa has been found liable for a DFR violation, with remedies and damages to be determined. Not even Sully and Skiles could keep a jury from smelling the usapa rat.

With the limitations placesd on the jury's considerations, how could not implementing the Nic not be perceived as a DFR against USAPA. My question is, what is the proof the Nic would have ever been implemented? If the list is never implemented, how can there be any damages? We'll just have to see what the Judge decides from here, but I think his statements from the initial proceedings are very informative.