US Pilots Labor Discussion

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I don't blame anyone but USAPA and the pilots that support them because that is the root cause of this issue. The en banc hearing of the 9th and the SCOTUS appeal only had the slimmest of chances of a favorable outcome because this is a highly complicated issue and en banc and SCOTUS reviews likely didn't even scratch the surface for the justices to actually consider how Tashima and Graber got it wrong. These are busy and overburdened people and I can’t fault them for not spending endless hours trying to understand why this matter was different than a typical DFR case.

I will long hold that Tashima and Graber got it wrong because of laziness or liberal favoritism, but I won't charge them with further delaying the JCBA. Even if they had ruled the matter was ripe and affirmed all of the rulings of Judge Wake, there still wouldn't be a JCBA in place. USAPA and $eham would have found another cause for delaying the NIC/JCBA. They don't want one, never did, never will. A JCBA will have to be forced upon them unless mandatory retirement changes the imbalance of power held over USAPA by the current lot of narcissists and malcontents in the east.

Ok, blame it on USAPA, malcontents etc, Tashima and Graber, liberal favoratism, you always dodge the F/A lack of a JCBA, you know why ?because you might have to admit that maybe it aint USAPA delaying this process, might throw a wrench into that self rightious attitude you have probably handed down from that lineage of yours, SEC XII B of the t/a will allow the company to negotiate with USAPA, you see those "LIBERALS" got it right, the DJ will get tossed, appealed and tossed with guidance much the same as your ADDINGTON . MM! I hear UAL and DAL might be hiring !

 

[Zone5]

You know what would be really interesting to see?

Run a company wide permanent pilot bid using the NIC.

Granted it would just be for "instructional" purposes at this time, but assuming everybody "really" bid what they would if it were real, it would indeed be a tool for all concerned to get a better grip on what we are all talking about. Throw a few make believe caveats in there like equal pay parity, industry standard pay scale for all equipment types, remove all existing equipment and position freezes, if you make a location change you have to pay for it yourself, no company bought homes, pull the kids out of school?, have the spouse quit their job?, commit to a cross country commute?, ect, ect, ect. Really think through the ramifications and bid as you really would.

Would the East really be screwed as bad as they think they would be?

Would the West really gain what they think they want and deserve?

Would the company really be willing to pay for the resultant training?

Put your bid where your mouth is folks and lets just see where the chips would really fall!

seajay

 

[CallawayGolf]

Ok, blame it on USAPA, malcontents etc, Tashima and Graber, liberal favoratism, you always dodge the F/A lack of a JCBA, you know why ?because you might have to admit that maybe it aint USAPA delaying this process, might throw a wrench into that self rightious attitude you have probably handed down from that lineage of yours, SEC XII B of the t/a will allow the company to negotiate with USAPA, you see those "LIBERALS" got it right, the DJ will get tossed, appealed and tossed with guidance much the same as your ADDINGTON . MM! I hear UAL and DAL might be hiring !

I'm not dodging the F/A contract issues, they just aren't all that important to the topic at hand. For the first four and a half years or so the F/A contract was in a holding pattern waiting for the pilot JCBA to get resolved. The FAs wanted their "me too" and were willing to wait for quite a few years assuming the east pilots would eventually come to be reasonable, accept the NIC and move on with their contract. Seeing that that was never going to happen with USAPA driving the bus off the cliff, the FAs finally decided to go it alone without the pilots.

Now, after four years of ignoring the issues of their own JCBA, they are dealing with issues that should have been discussed in 2005, but weren't. Fresh off the merger some of these issues would have been easier to come to an agreement on. Now the infighting among the FAs seems so high that they may not have very many reasonable heads in the AFA either. Admittedly, I don’t frequent their board so I have little to say about their contract issues other than they shouldn’t have waited four years to get started on the tougher issues.

I can speculate, however, that Management may be of the belief that if the FAs were willing to wait for more than four years to get their “me too” provisions, that a JCBA may not really be all that important to them anyway. What’s the rush now? They made Management wait four years for no apparent reason and Management will not attain what they want – combined operations – until the pilot issue is resolved, so there is very little motivation to get it done on either side. Had they broke off from the pilots in 2005, they would have a contract by now. Remember, it takes two willing parties to negotiate in good faith and USAPA prefers to go the Pee Wee Herman route instead.

 

[OTTER574]

You know what would be really interesting to see?

Run a company wide permanent pilot bid using the NIC.

Granted it would just be for "instructional" purposes at this time, but assuming everybody "really" bid what they would if it were real, it would indeed be a tool for all concerned to get a better grip on what we are all talking about. Throw a few make believe caveats in there like equal pay parity, industry standard pay scale for all equipment types, remove all existing equipment and position freezes, if you make a location change you have to pay for it yourself, no company bought homes, pull the kids out of school?, have the spouse quit their job?, commit to a cross country commute?, ect, ect, ect. Really think through the ramifications and bid as you really would.

Would the East really be screwed as bad as they think they would be?

Would the West really gain what they think they want and deserve?

Would the company really be willing to pay for the resultant training?

Put your bid where your mouth is folks and lets just see where the chips would really fall!

seajay

I think I'm finally seeing some good dialog going on here. Great idea. I brought this exact scenario up months ago with other pilots here on the west and think it's a good idea.

No Bump No Flush will take care of the resultant training. Remember there has to be an opening.

My take on numbers moving are 250 east to west and 150 west to east + or -.

Will the company go along with it??..Don't know, but I do know the biggest fear parker has is a strong unified pilot group/union of which we're not!

OTTER

 

[Zone5]

I think I'm finally seeing some good dialog going on here. Great idea. I brought this exact scenario up months ago with other pilots here on the west and think it's a good idea.

No Bump No Flush will take care of the resultant training. Remember there has to be an opening.

My take on numbers moving are 250 east to west and 150 west to east + or -.

Will the company go along with it??..Don't know, but I do know the biggest fear parker has is a strong unified pilot group/union of which we're not!

OTTER

No need to even attempt to crystal ball the outcome. Just do it. Get together a model of parameters. Find a third party number cruncher to run the numbers and publish the outcome. Maybe all this running around, arm flapping and farting is a total waste of time.

Don't know how you look, till you get your picture took!

seajay

 

[Crzipilot]

As long as you can show that same picture book 5 years from now and 10 years even 15 years into the future. Running a mock bid at present status really doesn't do a whole lot. Show me that same mock bid in 5 year increments for the next 15/25 years, then maybe....

 

[Zone5]

I'm not dodging the F/A contract issues, they just aren't all that important to the topic at hand. For the first four and a half years or so the F/A contract was in a holding pattern waiting for the pilot JCBA to get resolved. The FAs wanted their "me too" and were willing to wait for quite a few years assuming the east pilots would eventually come to be reasonable, accept the NIC and move on with their contract. Seeing that that was never going to happen with USAPA driving the bus off the cliff, the FAs finally decided to go it alone without the pilots.

Now, after four years of ignoring the issues of their own JCBA, they are dealing with issues that should have been discussed in 2005, but weren't. Fresh off the merger some of these issues would have been easier to come to an agreement on. Now the infighting among the FAs seems so high that they may not have very many reasonable heads in the AFA either. Admittedly, I don’t frequent their board so I have little to say about their contract issues other than they shouldn’t have waited four years to get started on the tougher issues.

I can speculate, however, that Management may be of the belief that if the FAs were willing to wait for more than four years to get their “me too” provisions, that a JCBA may not really be all that important to them anyway. What’s the rush now? They made Management wait four years for no apparent reason and Management will not attain what they want – combined operations – until the pilot issue is resolved, so there is very little motivation to get it done on either side. Had they broke off from the pilots in 2005, they would have a contract by now. Remember, it takes two willing parties to negotiate in good faith and USAPA prefers to go the Pee Wee Herman route instead.

Interesting. So the flight attendants haven't been able to come to terms with the company and they aren't even fighting over seniority. One common denominator there is the company!

seajay

 

[Zone5]

As long as you can show that same picture book 5 years from now and 10 years even 15 years into the future. Running a mock bid at present status really doesn't do a whole lot. Show me that same mock bid in 5 year increments for the next 15/25 years, then maybe....

You're kidding right? If you are looking for a JCBA that can predict the future, in the airline business no less, then you must be a whole lot smarter than me and not very likely to succeed. Is there anybody else out there that still believes in career expectations? We barely have what we have right now.

If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't be flying airplanes, I would have gotten in the business of painting them. First thing every new egomaniac airline CEO does is mark his territory by raising his leg and spraying paint on the jets!

seajay

 

[OTTER574]

No need to even attempt to crystal ball the outcome. Just do it. Get together a model of parameters. Find a third party number cruncher to run the numbers and publish the outcome. Maybe all this running around, arm flapping and farting is a total waste of time.

Don't know how you look, till you get your picture took!

seajay

I'll let my reps know and please do the same. We have on the west a Mock Bid that's published along with the Open Bid. A wish list so-of-speak based on your standing bid on file. Not perfect by all means but gives an indication of where a pilot may want to be.

Let's hope we can stop the fear mongering going on.

OTTER

 

[CallawayGolf]

Interesting. So the flight attendants haven't been able to come to terms with the company and they aren't even fighting over seniority. One common denominator there is the company!

seajay

Comprehension remains a challenge on the east I see.

Go back and look at statements made by Management, the press, and I believe the AFA itself from back in the 2006-2008 timeframe and they will say something to the effect of "we expect to complete the FA contract rather quickly once the pilot contract is finished". If you don't start negotiating until 2010 and then modify sections that were once thought to be closed/agreed upon, then there is no way you are going to have a JCBA in January of 2011. No significant labor contract comes together that easily, except under the jurisdiction of a bankruptcy judge.

Think about it. If the FA contract had a bunch of sections that once said "me too" that they now have to fill in with specific details, that can take a while, especially when the east FA hadn’t had to develop that kind of language before. USAPA has delayed both the pilot and FA contract for many years. The FAs will get there but it probably wasn’t very smart to telegraph that they were more interested in the “me too” sections than in actually getting a contract. The same goes for USAPA – they can’t effectively negotiate when they telegraph that the only thing of importance to them is seniority. Oops! Boy it is hard to negotiate when the other side knows exactly which buttons to push to get you all hot and bothered.

 

[Zone5]

I'll let my reps know and please do the same. We have on the west a Mock Bid that's published along with the Open Bid. A wish list so-of-speak based on your standing bid on file. Not perfect by all means but gives an indication of where a pilot may want to be.

Let's hope we can stop the fear mongering going on.

OTTER

That would be a big improvement! A little reality and accurate insight could go along way. We are all toast, if we don't get a grip and start pulling this mess together. We need to focus on the enemy and that would be the people on the other side of the negotiating table.

Firing squads are all fine and good, but you can't form up the troops in a circle and get a very good result.

seajay

 

[crazystnic]

I agree with Crzy pilot,.. a mock bid now does no good... hello... remember what the east cares about is the attrition that is about to explode...
a mock bid now does no good.

 

[OTTER574]

I agree with Crzy pilot,.. a mock bid now does no good... hello... remember what the east cares about is the attrition that is about to explode...
a mock bid now does no good.

Let's try and get this thing going. I think it will show some great resolve of this pilot group to this company.

Just so you know and I've stated that the Mock Bid is not perfect and from personal experience the bottom end (especially captain) will change some. When you see where you may be sitting..things change as always with the final bid.

OTTER

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I think the mock bid would be a great idea, and there is nothing to lose by trying. I suspect neither the company or usapa will go for it though.

 

[Zone5]

Comprehension remains a challenge on the east I see.

Go back and look at statements made by Management, the press, and I believe the AFA itself from back in the 2006-2008 timeframe and they will say something to the effect of "we expect to complete the FA contract rather quickly once the pilot contract is finished". If you don't start negotiating until 2010 and then modify sections that were once thought to be closed/agreed upon, then there is no way you are going to have a JCBA in January of 2011. No significant labor contract comes together that easily, except under the jurisdiction of a bankruptcy judge.

Think about it. If the FA contract had a bunch of sections that once said "me too" that they now have to fill in with specific details, that can take a while, especially when the east FA hadn’t had to develop that kind of language before. USAPA has delayed both the pilot and FA contract for many years. The FAs will get there but it probably wasn’t very smart to telegraph that they were more interested in the “me too” sections than in actually getting a contract. The same goes for USAPA – they can’t effectively negotiate when they telegraph that the only thing of importance to them is seniority. Oops! Boy it is hard to negotiate when the other side knows exactly which buttons to push to get you all hot and bothered.

Do you really think that leading off your comments with an insult is all that productive?

I have to admit, I haven't been paying much attention to what the FA's or the AFA for that matter have been up to. They have their own bone to pick with the company and I don't have a dog in that hunt. If they didn't figure out that hitching their collective bargaining wagon to the pilots here, wouldn't be such a good idea some time ago, then I guess I do feel sorry for them in that regard. Why they would want to "me too" the mess the pilots have been and still are in, is beyond me.

There seems to be plenty on the pilot plate here at UseLessAirways and OK, if it makes you feel better, blame their problems on USAPA, they've botched plenty of other things, so one more won't much matter.

seajay