US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

As long as you can show that same picture book 5 years from now and 10 years even 15 years into the future. Running a mock bid at present status really doesn't do a whole lot. Show me that same mock bid in 5 year increments for the next 15/25 years, then maybe....

You know I have never heard of a seniority list having to look 10-15-20 years into the future. There is a reason a PID date is taken it is a snapshot at the time. Anything going forward is speculation.

Tell you what if you had seen a seniority list in 1990 would you have stayed at US Airways? If you had known that in 2005 there would be 1700 furloughed pilots would you still be a us air pilots or would you have applied at ANY other airline in the world?

There is no way to know what next year will bring.

It is just stupid to even suggest maintaining status quo 15-20-25 years form now. In 10-15 the west will be the majority. Guess you want to maintain the east majority into the future.

What happens in the next merger?

Would you guys be making any of these silly suggestions if Nicolau had used DOH. No so stop stop the nonsense.

 

[OTTER574]

I think the mock bid would be a great idea, and there is nothing to lose by trying. I suspect neither the company or usapa will go for it though.

You know, I'll agree with you...but you got to try and they'll have to explain why not. Out west we have the reputation of recalling our union reps OFTEN..maybe too often if they didn't respond to the majority of the pilot group.

OTTER

 

[Zone5]

I agree with Crzy pilot,.. a mock bid now does no good... hello... remember what the east cares about is the attrition that is about to explode...
a mock bid now does no good.

I'm not sure you understand what I am purposing. Run a combined East and West system wide equipment bid incorporating the NIC. Equal out the pay and a few other parameters and see what comes out the other end. At this point we don't even know what the reality of that would look like. Until we do, how can anybody even begin to discuss how to tweak the contract to make it as "fair and equitable" to all, as humanly possible?

Does everybody realize that it is not humanly possible to make everybody happy in a merger? There will always be the possibility of DFR lawsuits after the dust settles. If done well, nobody will be "happy" and if there turns out to be enough people pissed off from either (or both) camps, they will then have the right sue anybody they want to. That's what makes America great and lawyers rich.

We keep doing what we are doing and team tempe, along with the lawyers on both sides, will be the only winners.

seajay

 

[Leonidas]

Zone5,
The east flight attendants refuse to be split from the pilots during the pairing. So how can the company sign a contract with the fa's not knowing what the pilot pairings will look like?
The victims in this are the west fa's who's mediocre contract expired prior to the merger .

 

[Zone5]

Zone5,
The east flight attendants refuse to be split from the pilots during the pairing. So how can the company sign a contract with the fa's not knowing what the pilot pairings will look like?
The victims in this are the west fa's who's mediocre contract expired prior to the merger .

Pilot pairings are what they are. I haven't really noticed much structural change in them for years. You got your one day, your two day, your three day and your four. The company has always re-built the specifics almost monthly. I never have understood why they find it necessary to almost completely re-write the thing every monthly bid cycle. Flight numbers, departure and arrival times change almost constantly between the same city pairs. Go figure, must be a real pain for frequent fliers to keep up with, I know it is for commuting crew members. More of that "crack" airline management we have.

Like I said, the FA's should look out for their own best interests and we should stick to our own problems. Plenty of victims to go around here.

seajay

 

[Phoenix]

Well, we blame YOU and the AOL supporters, so I guess we're equal. The only difference is, we have the LAW on our side.

Oldie, you got a "-6" on that one! I think that it must have been pretty close to bulls eye.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Oldie, you got a "-6" on that one! I think that it must have been pretty close to bulls eye.

Yea. To bend a quote a little from Jack Nicholson, "They can't handle the truth". It's amusing to watch all the threats and chest thumping from the west. They had a chance and blew it. Now, they're gonna get DOH with C&Rs, whether they like it or not.

 

[767jetz]

At this point we don't even know what the reality of that would look like. Until we do, how can anybody even begin to discuss how to tweak the contract to make it as "fair and equitable" to all, as humanly possible?

seajay

Unfortunately, the people running USAPA and the die hard supporters are not interested in knowing any reality. They wouldn't want to risk being proven wrong. They are not and never will be willing to explore anything that could shed light on the situation, lest their fear campaign be proven wrong. Convincing them to do as you propose would be like talking to a wall. The last thing they want is information. And if that information showed their premises to be false, they would launch an attack campaign as they did when AOL sent a little mailing to their homes. They will shoot holes in anything that doesn't fit their pre-determined conclusions. Their confirmation bias overrides all reason. As noble as the idea is, the only resolution to the mess resides in the court.

 

[Zone5]

Unfortunately, the people running USAPA and the die hard supporters are not interested in knowing any reality. They wouldn't want to risk being proven wrong. They are not and never will be willing to explore anything that could shed light on the situation, lest their fear campaign be proven wrong. Convincing them to do as you propose would be like talking to a wall. The last thing they want is information. And if that information showed their premises to be false, they would launch an attack campaign as they did when AOL sent a little mailing to their homes. They will shoot holes in anything that doesn't fit their pre-determined conclusions. Their confirmation bias overrides all reason. As noble as the idea is, the only resolution to the mess resides in the court.

You may very well be right. I'm going to make some calls and write some e-mails to see if there is any interest in finding out some actual data about just exactly what impact the NIC would have. My suspicion is that both camps have become far more entrenched in their predetermined conclusions and assumptions than they should or need to be. It's time for all of us to start thinking outside the box we are in.

There is so much smoke and confusion on the battlefield now that we are spending all our time shooting at our own flanks instead across the table towards the enemy line. Time for a brief ceasefire and some serious reconnaissance.

I really don't think anybody knows what a system wide NIC bid would look like. What would it hurt to look. I just really hate seeing all these scumbag lawyers cashing in while team tempe keeps lining their pockets at our expense.

seajay

 

[Leonidas]

Zone5,
A study about the effect of the nic. Has already been done, alpa east and now usapa won't release it because they didn't like the results.

 

[Freebird]

Yea. To bend a quote a little from Jack Nicholson, "They can't handle the truth". It's amusing to watch all the threats and chest thumping from the west. They had a chance and blew it. Now, they're gonna get DOH with C&Rs, whether they like it or not.

Talk is cheap.

Your DOH train is heading for a DFR II derailment.


USAPA = Runnin' with the devil ~Van Halen

 

[Zone5]

Zone5,
A study about the effect of the nic. Has already been done, alpa east and now usapa won't release it because they didn't like the results.

A study? Never heard of one. It would have to be bordering on ancient history by now if ALPA started it. Sounds kind of like an urban legend. It must not be too ugly from a East perspective, otherwise why wouldn't USAPA release it to bolster their position that the NIC is so unfair.

What I'm talking about is conducting a system wide mock bid, with pay parity and other, to be determined parameters, today. Real line pilots, bidding what they really would, if given a chance. Then we would at least know what the picture would most likely look like.

Nobody knows!

seajay

 

[BoeingBoy]

A mock bid could be made to give any result depending on the time period of the info. From the announcement of the NIC when the East boycotted the JNC negotiations till now, the East has gained merely because of the delay. Seven A332's, ETOPS 757's, as many as 25 E190 to the current 15 - all were added to the East fleet when it's likely they wouldn't have been without the merger. On the West side, the loss of about 25 airplanes led to downgrades and furloughs that may or may not have happened without the merger. So a bid run today would have the East bidding from a higher position while the West would be bidding from a lower position due to post-merger events, and would thus show a bigger disadvantage for the East. In short, East would lose more seniotity on a bid based on today's 5+ year post-merger realities.

However, the NIC wasn't designed for some number of years post-merger. It was designed as though it would take effect at the merger except it accounted for post-merger age 65 attrition on both sides prior to 1/1/2007. So running a bid based on the same data the NIC used would show little difference from 2005.

So if you run a mock bid based on 2/1/2010, the East comes out poorly, for no other reason than post-merger changes that caused upward movement on the East side and backward movement on the West side. If you run the bid based on known facts in 2005, the west comes out pretty well because of unforseen post-merger events. So the result can be slanted either way by just choosing what time period the bid represents. Why do you think that USAPA used 2007 for their DOH list's C&R's - it locks in the loses on the West side that weren't forseen at the time of the merger by using a date that has nothing to do with the merger.

Jim

 

[traderjake]

To bend a quote a little from Jack Nicholson, "They can't handle the truth".

“Truth is not determined by majority vote.” -Doug Gwyn


Sometimes the majority only means that all the fools are on the same side. –Unknown

 

[nevergiveup]

“Truth is not determined by majority vote.” -Doug Gwyn


Sometimes the majority only means that all the fools are on the same side. –Unknown

How about a list by DOB. This would allow every pilot on the property to reach the top position when he or she reaches age 65.