US Pilots Labor Discussion

[ManDachine]

Why don't we also run a mock bid with DOH and then contact every airline that we could possible merge with.......this way we can all get a warm fuzzy feeling.

 

[Reed Richards]

I really don't think anybody knows what a system wide NIC bid would look like. What would it hurt to look. I just really hate seeing all these scumbag lawyers cashing in while team tempe keeps lining their pockets at our expense.

seajay

I wondered where you were going with this C.J. Now I know. Call your own lawyers "scumbags" if you want. Nice little run up on this entire premise..you had a few even biting.

You all seem hell bent on somehow resurrecting the NIC in the eyes of the East pilots. Its dead. Over, and rehashing what you think about how it affects one pilot or another is no longer germane.

DOH with the appropriate CBL protections is the way it will be. You guys can find a seniority fantasy Wii game if you want, and run all the numbers. I already know exactly where I sit on the next list. Don't need any simulations.

RR

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I wondered where you were going with this C.J. Now I know. Call your own lawyers "scumbags" if you want. Nice little run up on this entire premise..you had a few even biting.

You all seem hell bent on somehow resurrecting the NIC in the eyes of the East pilots. Its dead. Over, and rehashing what you think about how it affects one pilot or another is no longer germane.

DOH with the appropriate CBL protections is the way it will be. You guys can find a seniority fantasy Wii game if you want, and run all the numbers. I already know exactly where I sit on the next list. Don't need any simulations.

RR

Yea, he pretty much "outed" himself as a westie, didn't he? Why would ANYBODY be interested in where they are on the Nic list, since it will NEVER come to be.

 

[nic4us]

A study? Never heard of one. It would have to be bordering on ancient history by now if ALPA started it. Sounds kind of like an urban legend. It must not be too ugly from a East perspective, otherwise why wouldn't USAPA release it to bolster their position that the NIC is so unfair.

What I'm talking about is conducting a system wide mock bid, with pay parity and other, to be determined parameters, today. Real line pilots, bidding what they really would, if given a chance. Then we would at least know what the picture would most likely look like.

Nobody knows!

seajay

The problem with the projections of a Nic seniority list for usapa is that it compares the Nic to seperate ops, and shows minimal detriment to the east in order to secure greater pay and benefits.

What usapa likes to do is compare the Nic with DOH and show that if they can steal it all they are grieviously harmed by the Nic, which is actually true. Comparing the Nic with a DOH list in which furloughs jump from the street to senior to 85% of the West list? You see, that 1989 hire who was furloughed, has less LOS than a 1996 West hire, under the Nic got recalled into the bottom of the east list and under seperate ops might hold group II captain in 10-12 years from the merger. With DOH he is immediately senior to all West f/os and 30% of West captains, so he complains that the Nic grieviously harms his unfounded expectation.

I like the idea of a mock bid, proposed it 2 years ago, and this board did not like the idea.

 

[nevergiveup]

The problem with the projections of a Nic seniority list for usapa is that it compares the Nic to seperate ops, and shows minimal detriment to the east in order to secure greater pay and benefits.

What usapa likes to do is compare the Nic with DOH and show that if they can steal it all they are grieviously harmed by the Nic, which is actually true. Comparing the Nic with a DOH list in which furloughs jump from the street to senior to 85% of the West list? You see, that 1989 hire who was furloughed, has less LOS than a 1996 West hire, under the Nic got recalled into the bottom of the east list and under seperate ops might hold group II captain in 10-12 years from the merger. With DOH he is immediately senior to all West f/os and 30% of West captains, so he complains that the Nic grieviously harms his unfounded expectation.

I like the idea of a mock bid, proposed it 2 years ago, and this board did not like the idea.

There's nothing wrong with an FO being senior to a captain. The east has lots of fo's that could hold captain. Just because a guy is a captain doesn't mean you have to kiss his feet!

 

[nic4us]

Poor little innocent pilots?...I see it differently. The only thing "disrupted" were illegal actions trying to bring the legal union down. Financing a DFR? You have to be kidding. The intent of LEO and its band of merry pranksters was a dues boycott. Did not work.

Federal Arbitration Act. We have been through that here before..I guess if you keep saying it, it will be true.

As to a "rent a cops" in the PHX airport meeting room, or in the Federal Building downtown...they were required..who knew if there would be flying feces. Seemed to be the norm for the same children that prank called safety hotlines.

Is that the mode you are in now, everything but the kitchen sink? With all the old arguments and screaming going on here over the last few days, I can only guess we are nearing the “acceptance” phase of your self inflicted ordeal.

RR

Explain what was "disrupted" to the pilots who went through divorces, extreme financial hardships etc.. due to the RICO suit.

You are right, I have come to the "acceptance phase" of my ordeal. I have accepted that usapa is nothing more than a scumbag outfit trying to steal my seniority so that a furloughed pilot with less LOS can leapfrog my position. I have also accepted that as the legally elected CBA they wield significant ability to do the same. Although I believe usapa will be unsuccessful in their campaign, I have plans in place for the possibility.

Of course the rent a cops are needed, that was my point. What usapa is trying to do requires protection from the people they are trying to harm. There is no getting around that fact. usapa is trying to steal something from another group, and that group is going to whack the moles every time they stick their head out of the hole. Keep bringing the cops, I would hate to see a successful whacking where someone gets seriously hurt.

As an aside, what does usapa know about safety? In there original C&BLs, they listed "promote safety" distantly behind the Number one objective of "promote uniform priciples of DOH seniority". Yeah, true safety professionals.

 

[nic4us]

There's nothing wrong with an FO being senior to a captain. The east has lots of fo's that could hold captain. Just because a guy is a captain doesn't mean you have to kiss his feet!

I do not see how this is a response to what I posted.

The West has many f/os that are senior to captains also.

The east has lots of f/os (almost the entire east list) that would be senior to most of the West captains under the usapa DOH seniority theft scheme.

 

[Missfit]

Suuuuure why not run a Nic bid like that...then also run one that shows PHX getting downsized 1/4, 1/2, or closed completely....because you never know that *could* happen. Heck you could downsize an East base too...it's not what'll happen in the very first Nic bid, it's what happens in the countless bids after it.

And a mock bid is just that a mock bid...Of course the West isn't going to bid East..it's the we come in peace fake out. Let's see a closed PHX base Nic mock bid. Kind of like what happened to all the western bases in the past.

 

[cleardirect]

Suuuuure why not run a Nic bid like that...then also run one that shows PHX getting downsized 1/4, 1/2, or closed completely....because you never know that *could* happen. Heck you could downsize an East base too...it's not what'll happen in the very first Nic bid, it's what happens in the countless bids after it.

And a mock bid is just that a mock bid...Of course the West isn't going to bid East..it's the we come in peace fake out. Let's see a closed PHX base Nic mock bid. Kind of like what happened to all the western bases in the past.

So how would those wonderful C&R that you guys are pushing work out for the PHX guys if PHX closed? You all have admitted that straight DOH is not fair for the west. Yet you speculate that PHX will close and what do we end up with straight DOH. An admitted unfair list. But I guess you guys have no problem with that as long as it is the west that is unfair to and not the east.

You guys can keep your DOH list, live under LOA 93. Sit in your own misery and remember what you used to have. A merger is a point in time not a projection.

 

[767jetz]

I wondered where you were going with this C.J. Now I know. Call your own lawyers "scumbags" if you want. Nice little run up on this entire premise..you had a few even biting.

Exhibit # 1. Attack and label anyone who doesn't worship and pay homage to the DOH alter as demanded by USAPA.

 

[No Land Green]

"Anything going forward is speculation"

Career expectations, base closures, mergers, liquidation, bankruptcy,......

 

[Zone5]

I wondered where you were going with this C.J. Now I know. Call your own lawyers "scumbags" if you want. Nice little run up on this entire premise..you had a few even biting.

You all seem hell bent on somehow resurrecting the NIC in the eyes of the East pilots. Its dead. Over, and rehashing what you think about how it affects one pilot or another is no longer germane.

DOH with the appropriate CBL protections is the way it will be. You guys can find a seniority fantasy Wii game if you want, and run all the numbers. I already know exactly where I sit on the next list. Don't need any simulations.

RR

WOW! I don't meet too many people with such a high regard for lawyers. I personally think they are a big factor in the ongoing destruction of this country's entire economy. Case in point, my wife takes some prescription medication for migraines, in the USA it costs you $65.00 a dose, in Canada it's $15.00. Know why? The lawyers. If one were to factor in the cost all the regulation, legislation, ligation and resulting insurance costs, all of which has the legal "profession's" finger prints all over them, it would water your eyes. But I digress, back to the specific subject at hand.

DOH, NIC, alphabetical, DOB, lottery, LOS, C&R's and God knows how many theoretical combinations and iterations. Once we wade through all that, a ratified JCBA (one that can survive DRF-II,III, IV......). Sure sounds like lots of money for ALL the lawyers, now and damn near forever. Yet through all this, somehow you know "the way it will be", amazing.

Fact of the matter is, at this point NOBODY "knows" how this will end. How will Judge Silver rule? How about LOA 93? Both a couple of big unknowns. Both to be decided by.....drum roll.....A SINGLE lawyer. ALPA screwed this up from the get go, a decision as important as seniority should have never gotten to the point of being "decided" by a single arbitrator, who is also.....drum roll.....A LAWYER. Never should have been an arbitration, the pilot representatives of both groups should have never had the option of throwing up their collective hands and walking out. Better they were still in a conference room somewhere (maybe even a boxing ring) negotiating, together, a Section 22 agreement that could be ratified by a majority of the PILOTS affected by it!

While were at it, allow me to define "Majority" in this process, 51% of the West pilots and 51% of the East pilots! The minority fringe hotheads in both camps will always be there and will always make a lot of background noise. Without achieving combined solidarity, we are ALL doomed to being jerked around by the malcontents, the legal system and the company.

Maybe it's hopeless, maybe this cancer eating away at pilot unity is terminal, I hope not.

seajay

 

[nic4us]

So how would those wonderful C&R that you guys are pushing work out for the PHX guys if PHX closed? You all have admitted that straight DOH is not fair for the west. Yet you speculate that PHX will close and what do we end up with straight DOH. An admitted unfair list. But I guess you guys have no problem with that as long as it is the west that is unfair to and not the east.

You guys can keep your DOH list, live under LOA 93. Sit in your own misery and remember what you used to have. A merger is a point in time not a projection.

Something these idiots who can't see past their own shadow fail to realize about seperate ops.

Lets say that the company and the board decide they are tired of losing multi-million dollar grievences filed by the West such as the TA-10 grievence. Who made that decision that cost the company soo much? I would be willing to speculate that it was one of those east VPs colluding to steal from the West and bolster the east operation. Any consequences to making multi-million dollar mistakes around here?

Now lets say the next VP of flight ops is a West friendly decision maker. hmmm......

 

[cleardirect]

WOW! I don't meet too many people with such a high regard for lawyers. I personally think they are a big factor in the ongoing destruction of this country's entire economy. Case in point, my wife takes some prescription medication for migraines, in the USA it costs you $65.00 a dose, in Canada it's $15.00. Know why? The lawyers. If one were to factor in the cost all the regulation, legislation, ligation and resulting insurance costs, all of which has the legal "profession's" finger prints all over them, it would water your eyes. But I digress, back to the specific subject at hand.

DOH, NIC, alphabetical, DOB, lottery, LOS, C&R's and God knows how many theoretical combinations and iterations. Once we wade through all that, a ratified JCBA (one that can survive DRF-II,III, IV......). Sure sounds like lots of money for ALL the lawyers, now and damn near forever. Yet through all this, somehow you know "the way it will be", amazing.

Fact of the matter is, at this point NOBODY "knows" how this will end. How will Judge Silver rule? How about LOA 93? Both a couple of big unknowns. Both to be decided by.....drum roll.....A SINGLE lawyer. ALPA screwed this up from the get go, a decision as important as seniority should have never gotten to the point of being "decided" by a single arbitrator, who is also.....drum roll.....A LAWYER. Never should have been an arbitration, the pilot representatives of both groups should have never had the option of throwing up their collective hands and walking out. Better they were still in a conference room somewhere (maybe even a boxing ring) negotiating, together, a Section 22 agreement that could be ratified by a majority of the PILOTS affected by it!

While were at it, allow me to define "Majority" in this process, 51% of the West pilots and 51% of the East pilots! The minority fringe hotheads in both camps will always be there and will always make a lot of background noise. Without achieving combined solidarity, we are ALL doomed to being jerked around by the malcontents, the legal system and the company.

Maybe it's hopeless, maybe this cancer eating away at pilot unity is terminal, I hope not.

seajay

Funny how you lament all of the lawyers and court battles. Yet blame ALPA arbitration. That WAS the reason for arbitration. So that we would not all be wasting millions on lawyers and waiting for the slow wheels of justice to decide.

That is the entire point of arbitration. Just because you don't like the outcome does not mean the arbitration was flawed.

There was NO WAY we were going to get to a settled agreement. Look where we are now. The east is still trying to shove DOH up our tailpipe. That is the same east position from day one. I have never heard anything from the east other than DOH/LOS. Furloughs want full credit.

You guys have the majority and still can't get it done. How were we ever going to agree locked in a room when both sides had equal say? Thus the reason for a neutral third party arbitrator.

Question: under A/M how is that differant that the ALPA policy? A single arbitrator decides the seniority. Under A/M it states that if the process is followed it is determined to be fair. The outcome is not questioned. Don't blame ALPA. Blame the people that agreed to a process and now fail to abide by it.

That is the reason we are spending millions on lawyers. Not following the arbitration.

 

[nevergiveup]

Funny how you lament all of the lawyers and court battles. Yet blame ALPA arbitration. That WAS the reason for arbitration. So that we would not all be wasting millions on lawyers and waiting for the slow wheels of justice to decide.

That is the entire point of arbitration. Just because you don't like the outcome does not mean the arbitration was flawed.

There was NO WAY we were going to get to a settled agreement. Look where we are now. The east is still trying to shove DOH up our tailpipe. That is the same east position from day one. I have never heard anything from the east other than DOH/LOS. Furloughs want full credit.

You guys have the majority and still can't get it done. How were we ever going to agree locked in a room when both sides had equal say? Thus the reason for a neutral third party arbitrator.

Question: under A/M how is that differant that the ALPA policy? A single arbitrator decides the seniority. Under A/M it states that if the process is followed it is determined to be fair. The outcome is not questioned. Don't blame ALPA. Blame the people that agreed to a process and now fail to abide by it.

That is the reason we are spending millions on lawyers. Not following the arbitration.

I wrote ALPA many years before this all happened and told them their merger policy was meatless. There was no real policy. Now look where it got us. A merger should never have to go to an arbitrator.