US Pilots Labor Discussion-Aug 5 to 12-KEEP ON TOPIC

[Metroyet]

To any Eastie who would like to answer:

Let's assume you won your appeal...what do you think you actually won? DOH? Nic. gone forever?

 

[hp_fa]

Guess we'll have to. An appeals court is allowed to overturn judge mistakes. That’s how the system works. Thats why we're appealing. Or is it we just like tweeking your attention span? Or depriving of you of another day of NIC and a 3% raise? Whatever reason, Im sure its selfish.

Remember, it needs to be more than error. It needs to be reversible error. Basically that means that the error needs to be significant enough that it could have made a difference in the final outcome of the trial court.

Not a big deal. You were wrong, not even close. You may be on the appeal result too. The expedite significance isnt lost on Harper. Its a big deal for him. Theres good reason Harper didnt oppose this. But its not good for Addington. As a West supporter I doubt if we'll ever read why from you. Bad news, good news. The point is, it will be over next spring or sooner. It's bad news for the loser and good news for the winner, long-term that is. Why restate the obivous?

Your continuing beating of a dead horse is probably showing others here just how desperate USAPA is for anything that looks like a win.

You also forget that I have no access to Marty Harper because, duh, I am not in the class of plaintiffs and I don't work for his firm. If the expediting of the appeal was "a big deal for him" he would have opposed it. He didn't. You seem to be speaking in circles.

Also, I have stated on numerous times that the Ninth could overturn the decision. I have also stated that if I asked I would opine that the Ninth Circuit will uphold the verdict and the injunction. I didn't see anything that appeared to be reversible error. Once I see the respective briefs I might be able to clarify my remarks. You know, actually consider facts and arguments...

Finally, don't forget that Grannath and Middlebrook didn't do themselves or USAPA any favors in the last two oral arguments before Judge Wake. Their comments, especially Middlebrook's, may cause real harm on appeal.

 

[usabusdriver]

...

Second, the makeup of the two pilot lists were nothing at all like the US/AW rosters. They were much more similar in seniority (DOH). Not perfectly aligned, but far from the disparity on the US/AW lists. (Show me a NW pilot, or DL pilot, whose DOH is 17 years different than the guy next to him/her on the list.)

DL management ameliorated many of the slight inequities by shelling out great money to keep their pilots happy. We get the confiscatory Kirby proposal. No, thank you very much.

It's not even comparing apples and oranges. Maybe apples and radishes.

nycbusdriver,

Would the fact that the disparity in the DL/NW lists was less than US/AW favor a DOH integration and not slotting as was done?

 

[usabusdriver]

Well now lets get logical for a change ....NIC comes back to do the UAL/ U mrger. The top 2500 UAL guys go on the top cause they are widebody pilots then the top 517 U guys go on top.........oh no how an I gonna do this.....a ratio....no they are all old......slotting........no they all fly widebodies.......oh hell ok the top 3000 go DOH and I will slot everyone else......that's it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Barrister,

That is probably what the UAL MEC would be pushing for. UAL has 78 widebodies (777 and 747) compared to our 12 (330s with some on order). That would place our most senior captain at the 50 percential range. Ugly at best.

 

[USA320Pilot]

In addition to the two pilot group not working together, another problem is the lack of union transparency, USAPA misleading people or hiding the truth, and the BPR authorizing 10 USAPA members to obtain Stipend on Bonus pay.

For example, I just realized that USAPA NAC Note Taker Dean Collelo, who is near the bottom of seniority list, is getting nearly A320 85-hour Captains pay for 9 days of note taking work for the remainder of the year!

Why do 10 USAPA officials deserve to be making so much more money than their line pilot counterparts?

For more information on this click here. This is simply not right!

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[exB717Flyer]

He was IIRC overturned on an NBA arbitration and if memory serves he was REALLY overturnes as in chastised.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt you've just list one overturning of a case the was probably many many years ago. Before Nicolau arbitrated the USAir Shuttle, perhaps? Nicolau was chosen by both sides in a strike-out process. Funny how only after he ruled was he labelled senile. And funny if he was so badly regarded he's still arbitrating for ALPA two years after ours.

Add it all up and there's only one conclusion that makes sense: either all the arbitrators, judges, and juries of the world are biased against the East or {fill in the blank}

 

[hp_fa]

Bob,

FWIW, as for the alternate strike method of choosing the mediator I used the search terms "+Nicolau +strike +list" and found this as the first post using those search terms. Using "+Nicolau +strike +alternate" brought me to this.

 

[boeingplt]

In addition to the two pilot group not working together, another problem is the lack of union transparency, USAPA misleading people or hiding the truth, and the BPR authorizing 10 USAPA members to obtain Stipend on Bonus pay.

For example, I just realized that USAPA NAC Note Taker Dean Collelo, who is near the bottom of seniority list, is getting nearly A320 85-hour Captains pay for 9 days of note taking work for the remainder of the year!

Why do 10 USAPA officials deserve to be making so much more money than their line pilot counterparts?

For more information on this click here. This is simply not right!

Regards,

USA320Pilot

The following are excerpts from “Unbiased Factsâ€. The highlighted portions below show one of many purely biased non-facts.

July 29, 2009

"A Special Supplement From Unbiased Facts on the Effects of The USAPA Special Pay
Program for The Negotiating Advisory Committee and Their Note Taker.
One of the biggest benefactors of the new USAPA pay program is Note Taker, F/O Dean
Colello, who now has a 47.3% pay raise and whose monthly earnings rocketed from $7,225 to $10,605!

Paul DiOrio, New dues-funded USAPA Pay: $127,260+ (up 73.2%)"

-DiOrio is a 320 First Officer at $85 per hour

"Dean Colello (The NAC Note Taker), New dues-funded USAPA Pay: $127,260+ (up 47.3%)"

-Colello is a 767 International First Officer at $101 per hour

"USAPA Pay, however, has not as significantly improved the fortunes of 2 other NAC
members.

Jeff Davis, New dues-funded USAPA Pay: $180,300+ (up 7.1%)"

-Davis is an E190 Captain being held from 767 International First Officer at $101 per hour



From Aug 8 Unbiased Facts 

“Summary

To Unbiased Facts’ knowledge, he (Colello) has never been listed on a Permanent Bid since being furloughed from his LGA A320 First Officer RSV position...â€

If “Unbiased Facts†would bother to take the time to view the permanent bid archives available on the USAPA website they would find that Colello appears on virtually all of the permanent bids since his return from furlough, the entire time as a 767 International First Officer.

...â€The error relates only to earnings potential before the BPR entitled Colello to receive A330 International F/O pay at 85 hours, plus $1,000 per month stipend bonus, plus premium OCONUS per diem available to all USAPA officials performing union work.â€

Again, if “Unbiased Facts†was interested in facts at all they would know that the UOM section regarding FPL states that pay will be based on what the Pilot holds or from which he is contractually being held. Additionally they would know that per diem is the same rate as it is on the line, $2.00 per hour - “premium per diemâ€.... premium B.S.

 

[prechilill]

It wasn't that long ago. I think I'll go look it up

Arbitration Board

George Nicolau, Impartial Member

George Nicolau, an Impartial Member of the Board since 1987, is the Past President of the National Academy of Arbitrators and the Society of Professionals in Dispute Resolution, now the Association for Conflict Resolution, and serves as the Vice Chair of the United States Branch of the International Society for Labor and Social Security Law. Perhaps best know for his nine-year service as Impartial Chairman in Major League Baseball, he served a similar role in basketball, hockey and soccer, and now serves as System Board Chair for a number of airlines and their pilots, flight attendants and ground personnel, and is the Industry Chair for the League of Voluntary Hospitals and 1199, SEIU.

I've been unable to find where he was overturned. Even assuming he was his credentials are beyond reproach IMO.

While I don't totally buy his argument it's hard to refute him as senile at 83. He has a strong track record. A record so strong that both sides thought they'd picked a winner. The end result is a primary reason why it's always better to negotiate an agreement.

Bob, your slanted viewpoint is enjoyable to read. So, did you used to be a gate agent for USAir, or was it something else? Have a great day!

 

[USA320Pilot]

Prechillill,

During the Representation campaign USAPA said US Airways pilots would be the lowest dues paying pilots in the industry and that USAPA officials would use crew hotels, hotel transportation, conduct meetings in the airport, and be paid crew per diem.

Now US Airways' pilots pay the highest amount of dues/assessments in the industry, union meetings have been held in places like the Hyatt Place, USAPA has authorized OCONUS/GSA per diem, and the BPR bought them self automobiles for personal using union dues to do so.

What happened to the campaign promises? Why have these (among others) been broken?

Regards.

USA320Pilot

 

[nic4us]

Both groups staked out the most extreme negotiating positions and subsequently were unwilling to compromise and that led to the Nic award. All of this time both groups continued to be underpaid and to me alarmingly so.

PineyBob,

First, thanks for your customer loyalty and bussiness.

The West did not stake out an extreme position. The West original position was a ratio slotting starting at the top, not 517 deep. Hardly extreme, but more enhanced for the West than the Nic ended up being. Completely compliant with the company's position as stated in the letter to labor group regarding seniority integration and in line with ALPA merger policy.

The east on the other hand has demanded and continues to demand an extreme position, even after being told by the company, the arbitrator, and a federal judge that they are not going to get it. They have gone to extreme lengths to chase their extreme position, with an unwavering fanaticism of emotionally unstable individuals.

I am not trying to lay all blame on the east, just saying the West position could only be seen as extreme by measuring its distance from the off the charts wish list the east had in mind in their attempt to staple the West to the bottom of their list, not negotiate a new list.

 

[aquagreen73s]

During the Representation campaign USAPA said US Airways pilots would be the lowest dues paying pilots in the industry and that USAPA officials would use crew hotels, hotel transportation, conduct meetings in the airport, and be paid crew per diem.

Now US Airways' pilots pay the highest amount of dues/assessments in the industry, union meetings have been held in places like the Hyatt Place, USAPA has authorized OCONUS/GSA per diem, and the BPR bought them self automobiles for personal using union dues to do so.

What happened to the campaign promises? Why have these (among others) been broken?

Regards.

USA320Pilot

George Orwell predicted all of which you complain of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm

 

[boeingplt]

USAPA has authorized OCONUS/GSA per diem, and the BPR bought them self automobiles for personal using union dues to do so.



Regards.

USA320Pilot

320,

You are full of it. Per diem is paid at $2.00 per hour. And the cars were purchased for official use after an analysis determined that it saved tens of thousands of dollars compared to renting and leasing.

With all of the legitimate reasons to have strong opinions on each side of the global debate I have to conclude that you are either feeling desperate or simply stink at formulating a decent argument.

The "unbiased Facts" crowd is fueled by the all time largest crock of Biased B.S.

Do you even know what the OCONUS rates are???? try $7 to $8 per hour.

 

[Metroyet]

Out of curiosity, What does the East actually "win" if the stars and planets actually align and the appeal to the 9th goes their way? DOH? Nic. gone forever? What?

 

[cleardirect]

George Orwell predicted all of which you complain of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm

My thoughts exactly.

"Everyone is equal, just some are more equal than others."