US Pilots Labor Discussion-Aug 5 to 12-KEEP ON TOPIC

[cleardirect]

Bob,

You are absolutely correct. The question of whether USAirways pilots strike is not if but when. Trying to force an unfair seniority list like Nic is idiotic and puts the company in jeopardy. The responsibility for the consequences of Addington rests entirely with the West pilots.

A CHAOS strike is both legal and effective. Scabs can't get in. The company cannot fire or discipline pilots for participating in a legal strike and Federal courts are banned by law from issuing injunctions.

Kudos for understanding what even our own pilots don't get yet. The seniority problem gets fixed or the end result could be as you said "BINGO bye bye US".

underpants

Here we are back to a selfish and shortsighted attitude that has brought us to where we are.

The east pilots AGREED to binding arbitration. The east pilots CHOOSE their MEC. The east MEC CHOOSE the merger committee. The merger committee CHOOSE the strategy to be used for negotiation, mediation and finally arbitration. The east merger committee CHOOSE the arbitrator.

But now the list is being FORCED on the east. Oh you poor follows. It is time to step up and take responsibility for your actions. What is idiotic is a group of east pilots that are so selfish that because of choices they made. They are now willing to put at risk the jobs of over 30,000 employees, countless stockholder and passengers, and numerous venders.

Underpants the “seniority problemâ€￾ is fixed. A federal court and jury has said so. In the near future an appeals court is going to tell you AGAIN that the “seniority problemâ€￾ is fixed. If you can not accept this final and binding result. Then pick up your toys and depart the company. But to announce to the world that you would rather impose pain on your fellow employees and our passengers then to accept what everyone agreed to is childish and selfish in the extreme.

p.s. It is not a legal strike until you are released by the NMB. That is a long, long, long, if ever way off. If that is your big plan, you really need to rethink that.

 

[ClueByFour]

Kudos for understanding what even our own pilots don't get yet. The seniority problem gets fixed or the end result could be as you said "BINGO bye bye US".

The East does not have the stones to strike over Addington. If BK1/2 was not enough, that's a hollow bluff. And the company knows it.

 

[Elevation]

I see that the Nic Award has been posted on the USAPA website. Thats gotta hurt.

 

[Megasnoop]

Here is a new twist. That expedited hearing is bad for the plaintiffs. Please expand on your new theory. Do tell, how do you know what is Harper’s mind? With case law on our side.

Maybe legal guy hp will fill you in. I think he’s already getting it. Are you sure case law on your side?

The following are excerpts from “Unbiased Factsâ€. The highlighted portions below show one of many purely biased non-facts. If “Unbiased Facts†would bother to take the time to view the permanent bid archives available on the USAPA website they would find that Colello appears on virtually all of the permanent bids since his return from furlough, the entire time as a 767 International First Officer. Additionally they would know that per diem is the same rate as it is on the line, $2.00 per hour - “premium per diemâ€.... premium B.S.

I sat next to the crew rest Envoy seat to AMS last April. There was Dean, so I guess he’s a real B767 F/O. The daily lies is all they got. They trashed Parella and Thueur, claiming they didn't hold C/O, but getting C/O pay. It gets old, though. The average East line pilot gets the truth and doesn’t listen to the old ALPA-crowd. There’s no ALPA LOA95 abuses going on.

320, You are full of it. Per diem is paid at $2.00 per hour. And the cars were purchased for official use after an analysis determined that it saved tens of thousands of dollars compared to renting and leasing.

How long have we heard this from him? BTW, we got a great deal on the Hyatt meeting room. They're trying to get our long-term business. “Facts†calling them “personal†vehicles, like their driven “home†every night. Too bad we didn’t have a couple of Suburbans to trade in and got the $4500 cash for clunkers.

Actually I'm 9 year Chairman's Preferred. You know a CUSTOMER????

Thanks for your continued support.

What I see is the smartest, most jighly skilled and highest paid workgroup playing into the Company's hand. Pilots have lost THOUSANDS in wages both in dues assessments (Which are clearly not over) to pay for questionable litigation and by not presenting a united front to management and securing a much deserved pay raise.

Pay “losses†are still out for debate. We’ve got 2 $35M lump-sum payments coming our way, great potential for LOA93/84 pay reinstatement. The ALPA/Kirby gem from 2 years ago eliminated both. It was a small short-term pay increase (2007-2009) with a potential long-term pay cut (Jan 2010 and on). We’ve got lump-sum signing bonuses before (call it retro-pay if you want). On assessments, we’ve never assessed for anything but COBRA medical and East pension, so your wrong on that. With Section 29 terminations, I doubt we’ll have assessments.

Both groups staked out the most extreme negotiating positions and subsequently were unwilling to compromise and that led to the Nic award. All of this time both groups continued to be underpaid and to me alarmingly so.

We’re all pilots, what do you expect? As you said “stupid is as stupid does.†On pay, I’m a glass half full, I think at least the East will come out of this break-even, staying separate. At best, we get the $70M and LOA84 reinstatement. Meanwhile, there’s no NIC contract. Its worth the wait.

We are nearly 4 years post merger and there is no end in sight to the madness. This thread is usually the busiest on US Aviation. The pay gap continues to widen and the bickering and rancor keeps Dougie's labor costs down and your dues assessments rising.

Busiest and the nastiest. Sooner or later, Parker has to pay up. Maybe now, as the company is struggling with profits, we help them keeping labor costs down is a good thing.

Nobody goes to Yankee Stadium no more. It's too crowded. Yogi Berra

 

[nic4us]

You are absolutely correct. The question of whether USAirways pilots strike is not if but when. Trying to force an unfair seniority list like Nic is idiotic and puts the company in jeopardy. The responsibility for the consequences of Addington rests entirely with the West pilots.

A CHAOS strike is both legal and effective. Scabs can't get in. The company cannot fire or discipline pilots for participating in a legal strike and Federal courts are banned by law from issuing injunctions.

Kudos for understanding what even our own pilots don't get yet. The seniority problem gets fixed or the end result could be as you said "BINGO bye bye US".

underpants

Unlike a certain group of untrustworthy, self-pitying pilots that are incapable of accepting responsibility for their actions, the West pilots are completely ready to asccept the consequences of their actions for Addington, the Nicolau arbitration and any other legally binding agreements, contractual obligations or even simply promises we enter into.

So do not try to lay the demise of the company at the feet of the West, we are honoring our agreements.

A CHAOS stike is effective, but it does not stop those trying to take others jobs from getting in, in our case that would be USAPA. So if you want to risk your job and the jobs of 30,00 fellow employees in your attempt to steal my job, go for it! Just for once try and show a shred of responsibility and do not try to blame others for your actions.

 

[Metroyet]

The responsibility for the consequences of Addington rests entirely with the West pilots.


underpants

Ah. I get it now. BLAME THE VICTIM!!! USAPA, (which we all know IS the east pilots) have been found liable in their unlawful treatment of the West. Make whatever silly threat you'd like, but understand that we do not negotiate with those that openly threaten us.

Who cares anyway? This Case is OVER. Maybe the entire company as well. We'll see.

 

[hp_fa]

Maybe legal guy hp will fill you in. I think he’s already getting it. Are you sure case law on your side?

So far I ** do ** think the case law is on the side of the Addington plaintiffs. I have, over time, discovered that SSM&P's view of case law is somewhat questionable, as is also their view of the facts. Even the judge said that.

USAPA has at various stages misstated law, facts, and procedural history, with frequent recourse to the “contradiction or confusion . . . produced by a medley of judicial phrases severed from their environment.

I am, however, waiting to see the briefs before I finalize that thought.

 

[cleardirect]

Here is a new twist. That expedited hearing is bad for the plaintiffs. Please expand on your new theory. Do tell, how do you know what is Harper’s mind? With case law on our side.

Maybe legal guy hp will fill you in. I think he’s already getting it. Are you sure case law on your side?

Maybe legal guy hp will fill you in. I think he’s already getting it. Are you sure case law on your side?

First and most obvious you failed to answer my question. Passing the buck, it is your theory.

More important. Yes I am absolutely confident of the case law. Are you? What gives you all of that confidence? Because Seham says so? Anyone else in the legal world go along with your opinion?

A federal judge agrees with the west position. A couple of high powered lawyers agree with the west.

Just looking at your best case. Rakestraw. Have you even read it? Do you understand it? Has Seham explained it to you?

The company reordered the list. The union put the list back to the ORIGINAL order. In our situation the ORIGINAL order is the Nicolau. So when the judge says things like.

Judge Wake’s order

Like many other cases USAPA cites on fair representation, Rakestraw will not bear the weight USAPA places upon it.

Findings of Fact

In Rakestraw v. United Airlines, Inc., 981 F.2d 1524 (7th Cir. 1992), ALPA was allowed to depart from its Merger Policy and to change its negotiating position midstream by promoting a seniority list that favored the preference of a majority of the employees in the bargaining unit. Rakestraw did not abandon or undercut the rule that a union may not reshuffle a seniority list for improper reasons. To the contrary, it reaffirmed Barton Brands, holding that “a union may not juggle the seniority roster for no reason other than to advance one group of employees over another,â€￾ and it cited Air Wisconsin without criticism.

No holding of Rakestraw precludes liability for discriminatory or bad faith action when a union’s sole motivation is improper.

 

[USA320Pilot]

PineyBob,

PineyBob said: "You're right I am biased. I'm biased against stupidity. What I see is the smartest, most jighly skilled and highest paid workgroup playing into the Company's hand. Pilots have lost THOUSANDS in wages both in dues assessments (Which are clearly not over) to pay for questionable litigation and by not presenting a united front to management and securing a much deserved pay raise."

USA320Pilot comments: PineyBob, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The financial loses to every US Airways pilot are now greater than the Nicolau Award cost. In addition to the Salamat report, which indicated the Nicolau Award delayed the most junior pilot on the property at most a 2-year Captain upgrade, the financial cost to the East and West pilot group is enromous and continues to grow. Click here for a graphic illustration on how bad the US Airways pilots have once again hurt them self.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[USA320Pilot]

Luvn7373s,

Luvn7373s said: "With the passion of deposing ALPA replaced with the lousy after taste of failure that USAPA has left in their mouths, the east is likely less united than ever. The east, for all their chest-thumping, knows where their meal ticket resides and a bunch of 55-62 year olds are not about to tear that ticket up. The only threat their vote poses is a threat to their own pocketbooks by voting "No" on any future T/A out of spite for the west."

USA320Pilot comments: I agree with virtually everything you said and clearly USAPA has lost a lot of support from the East senior and older pilots. These guys want money now because the Nicolau Award does not effect them. However, where I disagree with you is that USAPA will not obtain a TA to implement the Nicolau Award. Key USAPA leaders voted them self a pay raise where very one of them now earn more than an 85-hour Airbus Captain and there is nothing the West pilots or Judge Wake can do to force USAPA to obtain a TA. Thus, the Nicolau Award will sit on the shelf until USAPA decides to negotiate a TA for both pilot groups, which could be never.

The only way to integrate and eliminate USAPA's control is to elect a nwe union, which will require unanimus support of all West pilots and all East non-USAPA supporters (which is a big number and is growing with the silent minority no longer supporting USAPA).

Regards,

USA320pilot

 

[Megasnoop]

A new trial with with some instructions from the Ninth on how to cure whatever infirmities they determine existed in the previous trial. However, any new trial would include an appearance by Stephan Bradford.

I thought you said Wake did everything perfect. A new trial? How to get there? If it’s on ripeness only, I don’t see a DOH contract any time soon making it ripe for retrial. Appeals Courts (except maybe Sotomayor on New Haven firemen) give lots of hints in their rulings. It’s better for us to play out the 2 $35M bonuses and the LOA93/84 pay reinstatement. But a retrial, AOL already burned through (they claim) $1.8M. Where are they going to raise that money again? AOL started this. We didn’t sue them. If their timing was off it’s not our fault. If there’s a new trial, we both burn through the same amount, maybe more. Then maybe a new plaintiff win gets reversed again. When does it end? Not that we care all that much. We funded this with our (east and west) dues. AOL goes begging for donations. Bottom line, if this is overturned on ripeness, until its “ripe,â€￾ no new trial. You can’t win what you can’t get to trial.

Metro, I forgot to add that the injunction could, of course, be overturned or modified by the Ninth Circuit. I just don't think it will happen but I also will not rule out the possibility of a surprise.

hp, you thinking now this could be overturned? Was it the speed the Ninth jumped on this? What about Wake’s judge brilliance? I doubt the 9th will overturn or modify the injunction. Most likely they would “stayâ€￾ it. Maybe a stay is a modification, but you get my point.
PS: if you noticed an improvement in my spelling and punctuation, I got a new computer with MS-WORD spell check on it. It even has a ‘ key that works. It doesn’t improve my grammar any, though.

I think the only chance of getting overturned would be the ripeness issue. That would still leave USAPA in a sticky situation, where they know that if they could possibly negotiate a DOH list, they would lose their DFR all over again. What a mess.

The company is making our negotiating irrelevant anyway, 2-3 days a month. They’re still arguing about costing models. If it’s only about ripeness, do you really think we’re that stupid to make it ripe? On second thought, don’t answer that.

USAPA's pressure on the company to terminate pilots delinquent in dues or fees will come back to haunt them if they try a CHAOS type action.

Are you talking about last Friday’s 4 terminations? That may set off CHAOS out West on their own.
I had too much Yom Kippur liquor last week. Luvn, if you ever get over to Tel Aviv, you got to try the Ashkelon “Dirty Blondâ€￾ amber lager. It’ll make your teeth itch.

Underpants the “seniority problemâ€￾ is fixed. A federal court and jury has said so. In the near future an appeals court is going to tell you AGAIN that the “seniority problemâ€￾ is fixed. If you can not accept this final and binding result. Then pick up your toys and depart the company. But to announce to the world that you would rather impose pain on your fellow employees and our passengers then to accept what everyone agreed to is childish and selfish in the extreme.

Your saying the Ninth Circuit already ruled? I’ve heard of expedited appeal, but 3 weeks after the injunction? I misread, your predicting how the Ninth will rule. I guess that’s why they jumped on it so fast. “Pick up your toysâ€￾ sounds unnecessary. Why the need for that kind of talk?

 

[hp_fa]

I thought you said Wake did everything perfect. A new trial? How to get there? If it’s on ripeness only, I don’t see a DOH contract any time soon making it ripe for retrial. Appeals Courts (except maybe Sotomayor on New Haven firemen) give lots of hints in their rulings. It’s better for us to play out the 2 $35M bonuses and the LOA93/84 pay reinstatement. But a retrial, AOL already burned through (they claim) $1.8M. Where are they going to raise that money again? AOL started this. We didn’t sue them. If their timing was off it’s not our fault. If there’s a new trial, we both burn through the same amount, maybe more. Then maybe a new plaintiff win gets reversed again. When does it end? Not that we care all that much. We funded this with our (east and west) dues. AOL goes begging for donations. Bottom line, if this is overturned on ripeness, until its “ripe,†no new trial. You can’t win what you can’t get to trial.

Why are you struggling to take me out of context?

The Ninth Circuit will not overturn on the ripeness issue. The only thing I might see them doing is to perhaps address the issue for future litigants who might find themselves in the same situation, but they won't overturn on ripeness. It would be a huge injustice at this point to do so considering the time that has passed since that point and the fact that the liability phase of the trial has already occurred.

Also, even ** if ** a new trial was ordered it would not cost the plaintiffs (or USAPA) anywhere near the amount of money that was spent preparing for the first trial because the discovery (including depositions) and sworn trial testimony are already done. The various witnesses positions are already established and significant wandering from those sworn positions would potentially be perjury.

Finally, the plaintiffs have filed a motion for their attorneys fees. They probably will be better funded after Judge Wake rules on that Motion.

hp, you thinking now this could be overturned? Was it the speed the Ninth jumped on this? What about Wake’s judge brilliance? I doubt the 9th will overturn or modify the injunction. Most likely they would “stay†it. Maybe a stay is a modification, but you get my point.
PS: if you noticed an improvement in my spelling and punctuation, I got a new computer with MS-WORD spell check on it. It even has a ‘ key that works. It doesn’t improve my grammar any, though.

Of course it **could ** be overturned. If I didn't say it was possible everyone here would be pointing out the stupidity of saying that it wasn't possible. That said, I think it is highly unlikely that it will be overturned.

Congratulations on your new computer.

 

[700UW]

I guess someone forgot to mention once and if pilots are allowed to use CHAOS, the company is free to impose new terms and a new CBA.

 

[Metroyet]

Why are you struggling to take me out of context?

Because "severing facts from their environment" is all these desperate people have left. In fact, it's all they ever had and Seham Snowed them out of millions telling them what they wanted to hear. That's fairly obvious to the most casual observer at this point.

 

[nic4us]

Are you talking about last Friday’s 4 terminations? That may set off CHAOS out West on their own.

USAPA just pulled the lever on the guillotine their neck was lying in with this latest mishandled action.

It remains to be seen whether any of the 3 West and 1 east pilot will be terminated.

Go read section 29 again before you try to get any West pilots fired. The affected pilots still have recourse.

I heard at a conference call the BPR refused to inform the West reps of the names of the pilots targeted for termination.

I also heard of other violations USAPA committed in this act.

So I doubt the company will fire these folks, as they most likely would want to avoid the certain wrongful termination suit arrising from USAPA's ineptitude.