US Pilots Labor Discussion-Aug 5 to 12-KEEP ON TOPIC

[UtterlyUdder]

1. Where the hell did you get that from?!!?

2. Admins don't want a discussion on who bought whom and I don't care to bring it up.

3. It's about the Nic, nothing more.

1. That is a matter of fact. Doug Parker did buy USAir. The West pilots did not.

2. No discussion needed; refer to my #1 point.

3. Say what? Perhaps discussion on the Nic should be eliminated from this forum.
It is nothing more than same ol same ol day in and day out.

 

[Bear96]

In ecent years as he has aged Mr Nicolau has been overturned lending credence to the senility comments.

Could you explain this? How and when was he "overturned"? Could you provide a cite or link to a court decision "overturning" a Nicolau arbitration? I am genuinely curious.

Thanks.

 

[oscarjazz]

Not suprisingly, you missed the point entirely!!!

No, I got your point. I guess you didn't catch the sarcasm, maybe next time I will add a smiley face.

There is a real question there. If LCC merged with United or American, would the East pilots and USAPA support the concept that the numerically superior group is allowed to write the seniority list to their specifications? Would they abandon any support of their position and simply allow the other group to create the list unilaterally?

 

[oscarjazz]

First, DL/NW were smart enough to throw ALPA policy out the window when combining their lists. They saw what a single senile 80 year old could accomplish, and said we will have none of that.

Second, the makeup of the two pilot lists were nothing at all like the US/AW rosters. They were much more similar in seniority (DOH). Not perfectly aligned, but far from the disparity on the US/AW lists. (Show me a NW pilot, or DL pilot, whose DOH is 17 years different than the guy next to him/her on the list.)

DL management ameliorated many of the slight inequities by shelling out great money to keep their pilots happy. We get the confiscatory Kirby proposal. No, thank you very much.

It's not even comparing apples and oranges. Maybe apples and radishes.

DL/NW didn't throw ALPA policy out, ALPA policy allows the parties to create their process. The only things different were three arbitrators instead of one and limited time for presenting each case to limit the extraneous bs that is trotted at these hearings. By the way, those two items are now part of the new ALPA Merger Policy.

George Nicolau is still a very respected arbitrator, he is not senile, he just didn't accept your DOH list and you are angry about it. It really is immature for the East pilots to try to attack this man's character because they did not get their way. Go back and read the history of airline mergers. There are plenty of pilot groups equally disappointed with the outcomes of their arbitration. They just acted more responsibly, like real grownups.

 

[nycbusdriver]

DL/NW didn't throw ALPA policy out, ALPA policy allows the parties to create their process. The only things different were three arbitrators instead of one and limited time for presenting each case to limit the extraneous bs that is trotted at these hearings. By the way, those two items are now part of the new ALPA Merger Policy.

George Nicolau is still a very respected arbitrator, he is not senile, he just didn't accept your DOH list and you are angry about it. It really is immature for the East pilots to try to attack this man's character because they did not get their way. Go back and read the history of airline mergers. There are plenty of pilot groups equally disappointed with the outcomes of their arbitration. They just acted more responsibly, like real grownups.

Nicolau was thrown off the list of acceptable arbitrators by two major sports leagues due to his "respected" status. And, I believe, ALPA removed him shortly after May 5, 2007.

 

[Bear96]

First, DL/NW were smart enough to throw ALPA policy out the window when combining their lists. They saw what a single senile 80 year old could accomplish, and said we will have none of that.

How did they throw the ALPA policy out? The policy calls for the two groups first to try to come up with a merged list on their own, and go to arbitration only if they cannot.

Looks like they followed ALPA policy and worked it out on their own.

 

[Barrister]

No, I got your point. I guess you didn't catch the sarcasm, maybe next time I will add a smiley face.

There is a real question there. If LCC merged with United or American, would the East pilots and USAPA support the concept that the numerically superior group is allowed to write the seniority list to their specifications? Would they abandon any support of their position and simply allow the other group to create the list unilaterally?

If their 17 year never furloughed F/O or Capt were placed below O'Dell...yes...if someone hired 2 weeks after them here were placed 65% closer to the # 1 position....then yes.

When the most senior guys get stapled...yes then fire away.

 

[cleardirect]

My my...kinda testy..and it took you all day to come up with this?

I'll only do your homework just this once:

Wire Fraud

A situation where a person concocts a scheme to defraud... This criminal act is done using electronic communications or an interstate communications facility.

(Investopedia Commentary)

Like any type of fraud, wire fraud is a federal offense. A person can be found guilty for their misuse of a communication facility, regardless of whether their scheme actually defrauded anyone.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but for those defendants who were documented with hundreds of calls from numbers registered to themselves; this is all that is necessary. Perhaps USAPA cast too large a net and included some conspirators who didn't actually make calls, but rather aided and abbetted the guilty parties...perhaps. The telephonic fraud is clear....and that is all that is required to satisfy wire fraud.

As I recall, many of the defendants used their own cell phones to commit this fraud. Many bragged about going down a bank of payphones and calling in to the safety line and drop the recievers...

remember?

Of course you do.

First, some of us have to fly so I am a little busy to respond instantly to uninformed BS.

Next and more importantly. As I have said before You need to stop talking about things you know nothing about. You only prove your ignorance every time you post. You are making yourself look foolish as you dig a hole.

If you had actually taken the time to inform yourself about what really went on instead of making things up or trying to BS your way through the discussion you would know. Your wire fraud guess is irreverent. You are making things up.

NO ONE was charged with wire fraud. So it is meaningless to this discussion. USAPA filed two federal counts if RICO. Now try to stay on point will you. Here are the questions again.

Maybe you could specifically point out the part of the RICO law that says that calling public information 800 numbers is a violation of RICO. Please point out the part of RICO that makes someone guilty by posting on a private web site.
Just to help you out and stop you from saying anything else silly. This is the conclusion from the NC federal judge. The one in USAPA’s backyard. As you can see. The plaintiffs, that would usapa, could not even make their own case. When are you guys going to begin to understand that Seham does not know what he is talking about or cannot interpret the law correctly.

He failed to understand what the RICO statue is. He is misreading the case law that was cited during the trial. Ask yourself. What is the common factor in this? NC federal judge reads usapa’s charges, throws them out with prejudice. AZ federal judge reads the defense. Laughs at usapa for even arguing that defense. The ninth circuit is going to pitch usapa’s appeal out as foolish. Why is it that usapa is the only one that sees the world they way they do?
Does it say anything in there about wire fraud? As I said, stop talking about things you know nothing about.

VII. CONCLUSION
The Plaintiff’s allegation that the Defendants’ purpose is to “destroy USAPA†undermines the Plaintiff’s RICO claims in two respects. By asserting that the Defendants’ goal is the destruction of the Plaintiff itself, the Plaintiff fails to meet the continuity requirement of RICO and also fails to allege adequately an essential element of extortion, namely, that the Defendants seek to “obtain†the Plaintiff’s “property.†For these reasons, the Court concludes that Counts One and Two of the Plaintiff’s Amended Complaint fail to state a claim upon which relief can be granted, and accordingly, these claims are dismissed.

Because the federal claims asserted by the Plaintiff have been dismissed, the Court declines to exercise supplemental jurisdiction over the Plaintiff’s state-law claims pursuant to 28 U.S.C. §1367©(3), and these claims are therefore dismissed without prejudice.

The Plaintiff’s request for leave to file its proposed Second Amended Complaint is futile and therefore is denied.

Finally, the Plaintiff’s requests for a temporary restraining order and a preliminary injunction are rendered moot by the dismissal of the Plaintiff’s state-law claims, and for that reason are denied.

 

[exB717Flyer]

And, I believe, ALPA removed him shortly after May 5, 2007.

Your belief is wrong. Nicolau is still doing ALPA arbitrations. He just handled an Eagle ALPA case regarding AA flowbacks. But don't let that get in the way of your blatant ageist rants.

 

[Megasnoop]

If that's all the appeal is about then you might as well throw in the towel now.

Might as well. I'll pass that on.

Got news for you: a federal judge is allowed to have a legal opinion about a case and he's allowed to instruct the jury according to his opinion. I guess you'll just have to stick to counselor's Seham's superior interpretation of case law to fuel your appeal.

Guess we'll have to. An appeals court is allowed to overturn judge mistakes. That’s how the system works. Thats why we're appealing. Or is it we just like tweeking your attention span? Or depriving of you of another day of NIC and a 3% raise? Whatever reason, Im sure its selfish.

More German beer?

No, I switched to Golan Heights Pale Ale micro-brew and Maccabee Dark Lager. I havent seen any German beer here in Tel Aviv.

ALPA would be obliged to support and defend the arbitration or risk a DFR of their own. What ALPA couldn't do is a Wye River II. Wakes decision protects the west pilots from that as well. ALPA has the resources to simultaneously pursue the snap-back and negotiate a new contract. But they won't hitch their emotional wagons to going after a dead-end grievance either (and they are probably smart enough not to file a grievance before any grievable action has taken place).

ALPA thought the river would deliver. It didnt. The appeal will reveal, one way or another. We'll also know in about 10 months on $35M lump sum. Reinstatement arbitration probably Fall 2010. Patience, grasshopper. We all wait to hear from the 9th Circuit. Meanwhile, good luck on your card drive.

Every pilot group has personalities associated with their confrontations and failures. The successes are largely anonymous and forgotten.

I’ll keep that quote in mind for next round of insults on USAPAs lack of successes.

you seemed to make a big deal about me being wrong on the Ninth Circuit expediting the appeal. I already posted elsewhere about the reasons I thought that was, specifically that they normally don't expedite and I did not think that the appellants would take no position on the Motion to Expedite. As I stated in that explanation to Utterly, it might not be good news in the long term that the appeal is being heard earlier rather than later, especially if Wake is upheld.

Not a big deal. You were wrong, not even close. You may be on the appeal result too. The expedite significance isnt lost on Harper. Its a big deal for him. Theres good reason Harper didnt oppose this. But its not good for Addington. As a West supporter I doubt if we'll ever read why from you. Bad news, good news. The point is, it will be over next spring or sooner. It's bad news for the loser and good news for the winner, long-term that is. Why restate the obivous?

Oh, and why is USAPA seemingly making a big deal about the motion being granted when it was unopposed?

Get into your text books. Maybe youll come up with an answer.

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. Yogi Berra

 

[nic4us]

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. Yogi Berra

I have never seen this Yogi Berra quote before, and I have got to say it is my new favorite.

It is lacking the normal irony, because this one actually makes logical sense, and is straightforward so true.

 

[nic4us]

If their 17 year never furloughed F/O or Capt were placed below O'Dell...yes...if someone hired 2 weeks after them here were placed 65% closer to the # 1 position....then yes.

When the most senior guys get stapled...yes then fire away.

Since none of these things happened in the Nic, I fail to see your point.

The answere to the original question is obviously no. In a merger with a numerical superior pilot group, the USAirways pilots would demand their rights to arbitration if no concensually negotiated agreement could be reached. We would then expect both sides to honor the arbitration decision, and if the greater numbered group pulled any BS like USAPA has tried to, we would be able to enforce the arbitration for the same reasons USAPA's ill advised strategy will not work.

For the umpteenth time, and as explained to USAPA and L. Seeham over and over again both pre and post-election. It is a unions duty to represent all members, regardless of what the majority wants. It is illegal to discriminate and do harm to a minority within that union, especially just to placate the majority, win a representational election, or for simple political expediency.

USAPA's strategy has been flawed from the beginning. It will not work because it tries to use one small snippet of a union's rights, in order to break the same union's greater obligations. USAPA was formed to reneg on the Nic and make gains for the east at the West expense. This strategy will not work, either now or in any future hypothetical merger.

 

[Elevation]

I have never seen this Yogi Berra quote before, and I have got to say it is my new favorite.

It is lacking the normal irony, because this one actually makes logical sense, and is straightforward so true.

Probably because its not a Berra quote but from Snepschet a scientist/axe murder.

 

[aquagreen73s]

USAPA's strategy has been flawed from the beginning. It will not work because it tries to use one small snippet of a union's rights, in order to break the same union's greater obligations.

One small clarification. The "wide range of reasonableness" that unions enjoy is not a right, but rather that phrase describes the law's deference to unions; judges don't want to be getting involved in how a union runs their business unless the union's actions make judicial intervention necessary. That was the case here. Lee Seham has this notion of judicial discretion totally confused with rights, and that's probably not lost on him as he's able to bilk his clients out of untold millions thanks to this confusion.

 

[cleardirect]

Not a big deal. You were wrong, not even close. You may be on the appeal result too. The expedite significance isnt lost on Harper. Its a big deal for him. Theres good reason Harper didnt oppose this. But its not good for Addington. As a West supporter I doubt if we'll ever read why from you. Bad news, good news. The point is, it will be over next spring or sooner. It's bad news for the loser and good news for the winner, long-term that is. Why restate the obivous?

Here is a new twist. That expedited hearing is bad for the plaintiffs. Please expand on your new theory. Do tell, how do you know what is Harper’s mind?

We saw usapa fight tooth and nail to delay the trial and now the injunction. Even after the battle was lose Seham continued to filed motions to delay. The plaintiffs shrugged their shoulders and agreed. If you want the beating quicker that is fine with them. Why is this bad for the plaintiffs again?

The way I see it is that the plaintiffs, armed with a very well written finding of fact from a well respected judge. With case law on our side. Would be more than happy to have a panel of judges look at the work done by the judge.

I do see a shift in attitude here though. You are now says winner and loser. Not so sure about who is who anymore. It used to be that usapa was going to win in a walk. Now the winner is unnamed.

My opinion for what it is worth. The ninth has been watching this case and wants a crack at it quick. The sooner to settle this issue the better. Usapa said when they came to PHX that they did not have a plan B for seniority. I hope Seham has a plan B for another career when he loses this case.