US Pilots Labor Discussion-Aug 5 to 12-KEEP ON TOPIC

[nic4us]

Maybe. But there's a lot more bad news in west mailboxes...oh, and the clock starts at the stamped delivery date...not receipt date. I gather many AWA pilots don't pick up their mail anymore. <_<

" I hear my train a'comin'...."
Jimi Hendrix

I have to question your reading skills. You posted an exact wording of section 29.

It says "Such letter shall also notify the Pilot that the required payment must be remitted within a period of fifteen (15) calendar days from the date of the letter or the Pilot will be discharged."

No mention if said "date of the letter" means, arbitrary date typed in upper right hand corner, date it was written, date it was sent or date it was recieved. As the intent is to give the delinquent Pilot a 15 day grace period in which to reconcile their account, the only logical interpretation by those outside of a criminal organization (pending appeal) would be date of receipt. Moreover, as it is required to be certified mail, return receipt requested, the only logical conclusion of anyone not involved in an attempted theft (pending appeal) would be "date of letter" means date of receipt as mandated by the return receipt requirement verifying the day the pilot is made aware of said alleged delinquency. But logic is lost on the USAPA crowd, lucky for the West it is usually present in a jury.

Bottom line on this whole thing is USAPA better have a signed return receipt from any pilot they attempt to get fired. My assumption is they do not. If they do, and the whole arguement is the effected pilots payed 13 days after receipt but 19 days after USAPA delivery, I doubt the company will fire said pilot because USAPA does not have enough money to indemnify the company, (nor would section 29 A. 8 for an intentional breach) from the litigation that would arise to determine what "date of letter" actually means.

 

[oscarjazz]

I don't think you are a stupid FA. Anyone who is a fan of Pam Ann is a friend of mine.

While I don't agree with some of what you say, I worry that a union that is only 16 or so months old will be deserted by its members. That is not enough time for a good shakedown cruise. Right away, the DFR suit was filed before anyone in USAPA had a chance to catch their breath because they won the right to represent ALL pilots of USAirways. I think a recent arbitration stated precisely that. All pilots at USAir are represented by USAPA.

You are right that the Nic award wasn't the only reason for USair pilots dumping ALPA. Both the East and the West had issues with that outfit. As I recall, I think the West tried to dump ALPA a few times.

The only fair way for a seniority list to be drawn is by DOH. That is a fact. Now that the Nic award has bollixed everything up, it has come to a point where the 9th circuit court of appeals is involved. I have no idea how this will turn out but I stand by my opinion that date of hire is the only fair way.

I haven't googled it yet but my bet is that there are very few unions, airline or otherwise, that are not DOH.

I found your opinions interesting. Don't EVER think you are stupid!!! Your's was a well written opinion which you are entitled to.

Can you explain how the US Air/Trump Shuttle was not DOH? Apparently the East pilots think DOH is a principle only when it benefits them.

You don't have to google it, Delta has had four major integrations in the last 40 years and all were status and category ratios. The last four major airline integrations (US Air/ Trump Shuttle, Atlas/ Polar, US Air/ Am West, DL/ NW) were all ratios of some sort. The last major pilot DOH integration was in 1986.

By the way, ALPA had no authority to "dump your pension." That can only be done by a bankruptcy judge and only in specific circumstances. Remember the PBGC has to accept the pension for insurance payments, so it is not a slam dunk until the judge bangs his gavel. Before you attack back, my pension was lost in bankruptcy too, so don't feel like the lone ranger.

 

[HPDriver]

---

 

[ableoneable]

Open letter:





Op/Ed Hosted by Unbiased Facts
August 12, 2009

An Easy Mark For The Boys in Phoenix




By Guest Writer Captain Chris Beebe


For years I have watched our pilot group run wild on rumor and innuendo. Unfortunately, the emotional appeal of using rumor instead of fact is so prevalent that the truth has little chance.

Nevertheless, I will address again only those issues in which I can personally stipulate to the facts.

After the concessionary contract ratifications at USAirways, I was being paid as a group 2 captain. I chose that position because it was what I could hold, even though I was entitled by resolution of the Board of Directors, to be paid as a group 1 captain. Also, by resolution of the Board of Directors, I was entitled to the pay rate I had on January 1, 2003. I voluntarily took the LOA 93 pay cut along with every other pilot at USAirways. I stayed at that rate until I could hold group 1 captain at which time I was voluntarily paid at the concessionary group 1 rate. Just to round out the allegations of the rumor mill, I did not get an ALPA pension. I got what all the rest of us got, PC3 and working until I die.

It might interest you to know that Paul Rice, the Secretary, and Dennis Dolan, 1st Vice-President, did exactly the same, again, even though the Board of Directors voted to pay all of us as though no concessions took place. In regard to the President, he is entitled to the average of the highest three ALPA carriers. Duane Woerth voluntarily went to the pay consistent with his seniority at Northwest. Contrary to your statement, and I would like to know your source because it is dead wrong, all four officers did just what I have stated.

As a side note, ALPA also elected, as a resolution that was brought by me, to publish the National Officers' pay and it was posted to the ALPA.org website for all members to see. Very few took the time to look because it was so much easier to avoid confusion by avoiding or ignoring the facts. MEC's were encouraged to do the same but it was left to their discretion to do so. I would hope that USAPA will publish their FPL numbers.

As for the pilots with the highest W-2 getting to change the Merger Policy, when that happened in 1990-1991, we were still very much at the top of the pay scales. And, it was the USAir MEC that got the bias for date of hire into the policy in the mid 80's prior to the PSA and Piedmont transactions. It had little to do with W-2 but a lot to do with fears at United and others at the time (aided and abetted by many who felt their ox had been gored in the Kagel decision). Do you think UAL would like date of hire today? That's why they introduced it at the Executive Board a year ago.

The TWA guys, as much as they may want to change history voted to abrogate their own seniority in the American transaction. They did so because they felt they had a gun to their
collective head and could take a bad deal or no deal. Sound familiar?



The issue of seniority at PanAm/Delta was not an ALPA national issue but one of dispute between the individual MEC's. And as far as help to our pilot group, we got about $3M over about 3 years for various efforts ranging from contract enforcement to picketing, to communications. I do not think our MEC was ever turned down for help of a financial kind. And this is where I want to shift gears because all of this is like pissing into the wind because no matter how much you put the truth out there, our group believes what they want and uses whatever rumor is around to validate their position. Nevertheless, here goes, again.

ALPA is very different from any other union. Here's how; ALPA is a decentralized form of governance. That is because the member MEC's and pilot groups insist on their own autonomy in making decisions and retaining their independence of the national. They have that authority under the constitution and by-laws and just as you might want the president to break that rule, he can not, under penalty of law. If he chose to enter that fight, as you suggest he should, both MEC's and both pilot groups, I would add, would have told him not so politely to mind his own business and butt out, again under penalty of law. As another side note, when a labor union, or a corporation for that matter, violates those rules, it is a federal offense. So you can not simply ad lib as you go. You must follow the rules or go to jail. That's why I have to laugh when one of our luminaries comes up with the accusation that an ALPA rep cut their own deal for their own benefit. You do what is in the best interests of the group you represent or face the consequences.

Another difference of ALPA is that ALPA officers remain members of their pilot group. At a union like the Teamsters, and maybe every other labor union in the US, officers are employees of the union. They are entitled to whatever pay their board decides, they get a union pension, and union benefits. Think of the Negotiating Committee, or the NAC, being employees of the international as opposed to members of our own pilot group. Gee, maybe we could call them professional negotiators. The founding fathers of ALPA decided, in 1931, that their officers both national and MEC would remain tied to their carrier and not be employees of ALPA. This was revised in 1934 to make the president the only pilot to be an ALPA employee in order to remove him from the influence of his own airline and make it easier to govern all of the ALPA carriers.

That continues today and the philosophy of remaining tied to your own airline is what gave rise to the many seminars, schools, and conferences ALPA provides (over 100 in all) to assist themember pilot groups in providing expertise in all their areas of safety, contract, legal, etc. Provide the education for each group to conduct their business.

My opinion? ALPA is gone because ALPA had baggage (some real, most rumored), our pilot group needed someone to blame (certainly we could not be blamed for our own ineptitude and poor judgment), and USAPA offered a sliver of hope while ALPA offered none. Unfortunately, the hope presented by USAPA is nothing more than illusion, and in time they also will have their own baggage to bear. The paradox and irony of a fresh start as a union being run by pretty much the same old gang is not lost on me. So, you are certainly free to make your own decision but please use facts and if someone can not verify what they tell you, you should give them no credibility.

Is ALPA perfect? Absolutely not. And the level of perfection or flaw fluctuates as various issues affect the individual pilot. I have told the governing bodies at ALPA that they must decide to be a union or a federation because they have been much more of the latter. Just as I have told them that the US Airways pilots, both East and West, will not return to the ALPA they left. But, are the Teamsters, or the TWU, or the IAM better representative of pilots? Hopefully we will have that choice before we all drown under the weight of inferior pay, benefits, and infighting that makes us an easy mark for the boys in Phoenix.

Regards,

Chris Beebe

 

[ableoneable]

I predict multiple posts attacking Beebe personally, but none discussing his stated positions.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Can you explain how the US Air/Trump Shuttle was not DOH? Apparently the East pilots think DOH is a principle only when it benefits them.

You don't have to google it, Delta has had four major integrations in the last 40 years and all were status and category ratios. The last four major airline integrations (US Air/ Trump Shuttle, Atlas/ Polar, US Air/ Am West, DL/ NW) were all ratios of some sort. The last major pilot DOH integration was in 1986.

By the way, ALPA had no authority to "dump your pension." That can only be done by a bankruptcy judge and only in specific circumstances. Remember the PBGC has to accept the pension for insurance payments, so it is not a slam dunk until the judge bangs his gavel. Before you attack back, my pension was lost in bankruptcy too, so don't feel like the lone ranger.

Thanks for the info on other integrations. I still maintain that the only fair way is DOH and nobody will ever change my mind on that.

I beg your pardon on the pension dump. That was too done by a USAir ALPA person whose last name begins with D.B...uttovik or some such spelling. I have the same empathy for you as I do for anyone who lost their pensions, so no attack from me.

 

[oscarjazz]

Thanks for the info on other integrations. I still maintain that the only fair way is DOH and nobody will ever change my mind on that.

I beg your pardon on the pension dump. That was too done by a USAir ALPA person whose last name begins with D.B...uttovik or some such spelling. I have the same empathy for you as I do for anyone who lost their pensions, so no attack from me.

Sorry, you need to look at federal law for this. There is no one from ALPA or any union or any company's management team that is authorized to "dump the pension." It must be done by a federal bankruptcy judge and only after it is determined that there is no way for the company to successfully restructure absent the termination of the pension. This law was written specifically so companies can't use Chapter 11 to dump their obligations to the PBGC willy nilly. The law also recognized that there could be a conflict of interest between active union members and retired union members and thus they took the unions out of the decision process also.

In general, people like to find someone to blame for this. I don't know a whit about US Airways pilot pension but my guess is it was like what happened to Delta. The stock market crash following 9/11 caused asset values to drop, just as the high salaries of the late 1990's increased the pension obligation (bigger FAE, bigger pension). Add to this a company that was in very bad shape, especially in terms of cash flow, and the pension obligation made it impossible to get exit financing without the termination.

Someone would have to list for me the motivation for any ALPA employee or any ALPA pilot to want to terminate the pension. Who at ALPA benefits from that? Since it is obvious that pilots would be upset about the termination (I was) why would ALPA go down that path purposely?

Someone could say that Sully landed "on purpose" in the Hudson. That would be misleading, as he had very little choice of what to do once the engines quit making thrust. That is basically the choice that ALPA faced at Delta and probably faced at US Air. The pension was going down, now you had to figure out what plan B was. It is misleading to state ALPA wanted the pension gone, there is no motivation. At Delta we got a sizable bankruptcy claim that netted the pilots $1.3 Billion. We also got cash in the amount of $650 million for a total return of around $2.0 billion (yes $2,000 million). Fighting a losing battle to "save the pension" would have just meant losing that $2 billion.

Tough choice, the engines quit what's next? Find someplace safe to land.

 

[Pi brat]

There is no one from ALPA or any union or any company's management team that is authorized to "dump the pension." It must be done by a federal bankruptcy judge and only after it is determined that there is no way for the company to successfully restructure absent the termination of the pension.


That's interesting. Just recently a former ALPA officer stated that US's bankruptcy judge said he didn't authority to terminate the US pilot's pension, he just wasn't going to let US exit Chpt 11 with it. That lead to the ALPA MEC deciding to terminate it. So which is it? Jim, You there? Any former US ALPA MEC officers care to comment?

 

[Hawkhunter]

This is so over.

Like, wow man.

 

[Pi brat]

One east guy was permanently banned because he couldn't control himself (this individual is also a USAPA officer), but you do not see the logical void apparent in some posters' opinions around here.

Are you talking about the guy that advocated opening a PHX E190 base? If so, he is not a USAPA officer.

 

[hp_fa]

The DFR jury trial ended in what I think was jury nullification. A three hour deliberation can't be anything but that.

I have no idea on how you can reach that conclusion in regards to a jury out only three hours.