US Pilots Labor Thread 12/30-1/5

[Metroyet]

Okay, the new CLT update is just plain frightening. The omnipresent myopia and total obliviousness to irony just staggers the imagination.

The inmates are truly running the asylum now.

WAKE UP EASTIES!!!! Your path to ruin is being laid brick by brick right in front of you!!!

The spin and misinformation is appalling. I guess you get what you pay for.

 

[nostradamus]

Now pilots are getting sued. AWAPPA is leaving them out in the cold with no legal help, protecting its own officers but not those who did their dirty work.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Now pilots are getting sued. AWAPPA is leaving them out in the cold with no legal help, protecting its own officers but not those who did their dirty work.

From the U-Turn Update link above:
"As one of the named defendants targeted by USAPA, I have had to organize the financial defense of those not represented by AWAPPA…we, the individual defendants must establish our own defense team and the cost may be high financially. The ten of us, “The Cactus 10â€￾, who are not on the AWAPPA Board of Directors need your help! What can we do now?

What can you do now? Settle out of court!

 

[Metroyet]

What can you do now? Settle out of court!

di

You mean, Lie?'

Remember that whole "presumed innocent" thing from the Bill of Rights?

I Guess USAPA and their Angry FO minions still believe a case dismissed "with prejudice" is trumped by a fake unions' hind-sight-engineered, favoring only the majority's "C&BLs"

Hey NYCbusdriver, please remember to thank the CLT reps for us for making our case ineffably easier to prove.


Thanks for all of those Billable hours You guys have saved us.

Metroyet.

 

[traderjake]

But a DOH list with a ten year fence, which will end up being a fifteen year fence when all is said and done; where you keep exactly what you brought with you to the merger - that is not stealing.

If fences right all wrongs then you will you vote for a contract with a fence around the Nic Award?

You would get to keep exactly what you brought to the merger.

 

[cleardirect]

What can you do now? Settle out of court!

Settle what? Is usapa willing to drop the malicious law suit are repay the defendants? That would be the only acceptable settlement.

Because at this point all of the paperwork has been filed. Oh except usapa missed the deadline to file their final response. To busy, to overwhelmed, to expensive, to sure you will win?

So there is no need to settle anything unless it is usapa willing to admit defeat. Otherwise let the court decide who is the injured party in this silly trumped up Rico suit. When the appeal gets dismissed Bradford and Seham are going to look mighty ridiculous having spent all that money and made all those accusations only to be thrown out of court a second time.

 

[Piedmont1984]

If fences right all wrongs then you will you vote for a contract with a fence around the Nic Award?

You would get to keep exactly what you brought to the merger.

Depending on events in court, I may just do that. We are talking about the same thing, no? Just a matter of semantics.

 

[cleardirect]

Depending on events in court, I may just do that. We are talking about the same thing, no? Just a matter of semantics.

You had better be careful. Talk like that will get you in trouble from the all controlling association. Usapa says that DOH is a bedrock union principle to be fight for to the death. Any deviation from that is punishable by law suit.

Any variation from the approved usapa thought makes one a BAD UNION PILOT. Read the C&BL, it contains heavy penalties for thoughts or ideas not in compliance with the unelected leadership.

 

[nic4us]

What can you do now? Settle out of court!

This whole cactus 18 deal is USAPA's 3rd biggest error. When this got tossed by the court, USAPA should have simply spun it in to a victory of sorts to their constituency and let it go away. When the appealet court tosses this thing USAPA will get a second chance to try and leave it alone, if they persue this further it will be they who will hope for an out of court settlement.

Also, just in case they monitor this board, U-turn and its founders and writers frequently weave a web of idiotic ideas second only to USAPA's. Being disgruntled deposed ex-MEC officers really hurts their credibility. Getting advice and information from U-turn is like getting your news from the Colbert Report, only not near as funny. I take that back, sometimes it is that funny, in an ironic, I cannot believe these buffoons sort of way.

 

[cleardirect]

Thanks 'Direct,

At least someone here is posting good data !
Your excerpt may also be interpreted as the Trial Date being set no later than 2/17. That is, the trial may be scheduled for later, say 9/17/09, but the date will be set by 2/17/09 ???

When I spoke to one the lawyers for the DFR suit and asked about the trial being sooner then Feb 17. His reply was no there was to much information to go through but that they were indeed working towards a February 17 trial date. I guess that it could be read that way but the attorneys understanding is that Feb. Date is it. After the scheduling conference the judge still wants an accelerated trial but it could slip to April. Only because the judge is booked in March. But no later than that.

Also, it seems to me as impossible that discovery etc... would be complete by 2/17 for trial. If this case were rushed to that date, it would open up a huge channel for appeal would it not ?? I guess we can just agree to disagree regarding the eventual trial date for the DFR being way ahead of the MDA trial. If it happens that way more power to you.

As far as an appeal because of a quick trial? Who knows. As the judge said a lot of pre trial stuff has been done. At the hearing the judge was not having any laywering. Meaning he was not going to let anyone BS him with tricks. He required that all three parties get together a stipulate that all of the filings were agreed to. No wasting time over semantics and such. Not sure what the ground for appeal on the USAPA side would be. USAPA is the defendant and knows what they have done and did not do.

If they have done everything within the law they will be OK. It would be the west that needs the info to prove their case. It would be the west that may need time to search the documents. So if USAPA loses I am not sure what the grounds would be. “We don’t like the outcomeâ€￾ is not grounds.

The last filing I saw concerning the MDA thing was another conference. They have not even gotten to the point where they can schedule a trial. Once that conference happens the trial date could be set for several months after that. MDA may not see a court room until later in 2009 or 2010. New York I am sure has quite a case load and this has been in the system since 2005. Not a high priority.

I think all of the furloughs, especially the west ones before east new hires are illegal. Especially when we are about to factor in the 17 Large SJ overage flying hopefully about to go to arbitration.

In the end though, a MDA victory (maybe, as I don't believe ANYTHING with lawsuits are a slam-dunk) may create a chance to actually negotiate a fair seniority integration rather that the abominable mess that ALPA has left us. The EAST MEC should have started with a Wye river talk rather than all that BS saber rattling with DOH + no exceptions !

The problem with that is that we have all ready gone through the cycle once. The east should have negotiated during negotiations and mediation the first time. Wye river was an extra curricular meeting along with the Rice committee and the DEN meeting that is not part of the process. That was not the time to then decide maybe you should move from DOH. Both sides tried to find “Fairâ€￾. It could not be done, that was the reason for Nicolau. Do you really think that if we tried it again that either side could negotiate “fairâ€￾ and agree? Who will pay for the bill? The east pilots because you want a do over? Why should the west pilots be charged for a second chance? What is in it for the west pilots to do this all again? What do we get? Will USAPA live up to that agreement?

Would it end up in front of an arbitrator again? What happens if it comes out even worst in your opinion? Maybe the arbitrator takes back the top 517. He decides that the 190 pilots are less then cat II pilots and they all go to the bottom below Dave O’Dell. Do we go for a third try?

I am not linking the Nic and the DFR. I totally understand they are separate cases.

The MDA suit is against ALPA National and the East ALPA MEC, including appropriate EAST committees involved at the time the EAST list was submitted to arbitration. That is why I posted the hypothetical question regarding the NIC.

I think you are correct regarding the integration maybe going back to Nic or another arbitrator. I don't believe Nic or any of the outside parties have ANY EMOTIONAL ties to this process, as it is simply their JOBS.

Part of our problem as pilots is the fact that we have way too large egos and way too high emotional involvement to effectively negotiate anything. History has proven this time and again. The company has a hired gun for negotiations (Mr. Glass et al). Guys may complain and moan about his team but one thing is certain, they do EXACTLY what they were hired to do and they do an EXCELLENT job with NO emotional involvement.

I agree with you there. The sad part is that IMHO USAPA was formed because of emotion. For that very reason they sued individual pilots, find themselves in court defending their action, unable to move management at all on a contract. Logic and reason blinded by pure rage and emotion.

 

[Phoenix]

Bingo! The West merger committee through Fruend submitted the uncertified fake list to Nicolau ..

Integrity Matters? :blink:

 

[Phoenix]

If Rip Van Winkle were a USAir Pilot he would be the envy of us all.

The story of Rip Van Winkle is set in the years before and after the American Revolutionary War. Rip Van Winkle, a villager of Dutch descent, lives in a nice village at the foot of New York's Catskill Mountains. An amiable man whose home and farm suffer from his lazy neglect, he is loved by all but his wife. One autumn day he escapes his nagging wife by wandering up the mountains. After encountering strangely dressed men, rumored to be the ghosts of Henry Hudson's crew, who are playing nine-pins, and after drinking some of their liquor, he settles down under a shady tree and falls asleep. He wakes up twenty years later and returns to his village. He finds out that his wife has died and his close friends have died in a war or gone somewhere else. He immediately gets into trouble when he hails himself a loyal subject of King George III, not knowing that in the meantime the American Revolution has taken place. An old local recognizes him, however, and Rip's now grown daughter eventually puts him up. As Rip resumes his habit of idleness in the village, and his tale is solemnly believed by the old Dutch settlers, certain hen-pecked husbands especially wish they shared Rip's luck.

 

[YVINTERN]

If Rip Van Winkle were a USAir Pilot he would be the envy of us all.

Amen

 

[cleardirect]

Bingo! The West merger committee through Fruend submitted the uncertified fake list to Nicolau which
changed the MDA pilots from working E170 Captains to furloughed along with other changes to the certified East list. There is no dispute that the West submitted the uncertified fake list. The West also claimed AWA was a viable growing airline when the truth was it was near bankruptcy based in markets about to crash. The West pilots cheated and Nicolau used the fraudulent data to build his list. USAPA will of course comply with any court orders but has multiple options as the CBA to reach a fair and equitable seniority integration. Using the fraudulent Nicolau list or any kind of scheme based on historic relative positions never has been nor ever will be acceptable to East pilots.

For the less educated in the group. You are going to have to explain how a west attorney submitted an uncertified list for the east pilots? How did that happen? Where was the east NC, negligent and ignoring their duty? Did Freund hand them a list and say “here use thisâ€￾? Where was Dan Katts during the process? The east was the expert in mergers. You have been down this path before. This here is the west’s first rodeo. What did we know about all these complicated goings on? We are just rookies after all.

How is it that we managed to outsmart all that experience?

You made the statement back it up.

The west made the claim that AWA was a viable airline. However that claim was then proven by expert testimony from several witnesses under oath. Who did AAA bring to prove your case? I suggest that you read the transcripts from the hearing. A statement by Doug after the fact in front of employees is not fact or proof of anything.

Making the false accusation the that the west “cheatedâ€￾ is a desperate move at this late date. Those charges were investigated at the time. All found to be false. Where is your evidence that the west cheated? If you have a problem or have any evidence. Call an attorney. Call Nicolau and tell him that he was duped by the wascally west.

It may not be acceptable to the east but it most certainly will be used by the east. As you say USAPA will comply with a federal court. Your choice is to use the list or find an airline where you can have your date of hire. That would sometime in 2009.

The seniority solution will respect longevity and attrition and be fair and equitable to both East and West pilots.

Later,

Eye

As for this statement. A solution has already been found. A legally agreed to list has been submitted to the company. The company has accepted that solution. The west has accepted that solution. The only people not on board with the solution are the USAPA supporters. Very soon a federal judge may accept that solution also.


After that usapa supporter are going to be in a shrinking minority.

 

[Metroyet]

Integrity Matters? :blink:

Rational Thought Optional?