US Pilots Labor Discussion-Aug 5 to 12-KEEP ON TOPIC

[des nudo]

Yes always to the OJ case.

So in your world the simple fact that charges were filed and you believe them make someone guilty.

Well the DOL is crawling all over usapa this week. Accusations have been made, an investagation is underway. Therefore they must be guilty right? No need for a judge or jury to find them guilty. All you have to do is believe it.

That is why we have trials to determine facts and guilty or innocence. When the judge dismisses. The law has determined them not guilty. It is not a difficult concept.

What defies logic is to continue to cling to a lie and false charges. What you should be upset about is the $239,000 wasted just to be proven wrong.

How many Ford automobiles would that have bought for the officers?

I'd like to explore your premise.

If I steal your car and get away with it, am I a "criminal" or not?

Am I only a "criminal" if I get caught? Or if I get prosecuted? Or is the act of stealing your car a qualifier for me being a "criminal".

Based on your posts, I'm only guilty if I get caught.

I see.

 

[banshee74]

Attitudes like yours are why US was lying in a coffin with dirt being poured on. Once the company gets rid of the angry old anchors, the better off it will be.

This forum's best value is in entertainment. When in this this thread is there any discussion of insurance, pilot fatigue factors, training, aircraft discussions, anything remotely tied to actually being airline pilots? Nope...only "I want mine". Quotes above, clearly aimed at people who have given their adult lives in the performance of their professional careers, is a great disservice to everyone involved.

 

[nic4us]

I'd like to explore your premise.

If I steal your car and get away with it, am I a "criminal" or not?

Am I only a "criminal" if I get caught? Or if I get prosecuted? Or is the act of stealing your car a qualifier for me being a "criminal".

Based on your posts, I'm only guilty if I get caught.

I see.

The issue with the RICO lawsuit is that it lumped individuals who were totally innocent of any wrongdoing with others who actually were tied to mischevous acts such as calling the toll free number.

Some of the defendants were caught with their phone numbers making numerous calls. OK, they are probably not innocent, but are also not guilty of racketeering.

The AWAPPA board, by allowing a web forum may have unintentionally abetted these acts, but again racketeering is an over the top charge, and a misuse of the RICO act.

Other named defendants are absolutely innocent of any charges, and it appears their names were only listed as payback for things said on the old ALPA forums, or as a pre-emptive means to tie up West resources to avoid the coming West DFR litigation. Further, there are named defendants, who with any due diligence, USAPA could have determined itself that these individuals had nothing to due with any of the charges brought against them. This is a malicious prosecution, and if these individuals get the money to countersue USAPA once the appeal fails, they will be able to retire wealthy on the award thay take from the USAPA.

So to expand on your premise, if your car is stolen, and you fabricate charges against me because I once slept with your wife, I am of questionable moral character, and it is you who are the criminal.

 

[des nudo]

The issue with the RICO lawsuit is that it lumped individuals who were totally innocent of any wrongdoing with others who actually were tied to mischevous acts such as calling the toll free number.

Some of the defendants were caught with their phone numbers making numerous calls. OK, they are probably not innocent, but are also not guilty of racketeering.

The AWAPPA board, by allowing a web forum may have unintentionally abetted these acts, but again racketeering is an over the top charge, and a misuse of the RICO act.

Other named defendants are absolutely innocent of any charges, and it appears their names were only listed as payback for things said on the old ALPA forums, or as a pre-emptive means to tie up West resources to avoid the coming West DFR litigation. Further, there are named defendants, who with any due diligence, USAPA could have determined itself that these individuals had nothing to due with any of the charges brought against them. This is a malicious prosecution, and if these individuals get the money to countersue USAPA once the appeal fails, they will be able to retire wealthy on the award thay take from the USAPA.

So to expand on your premise, if your car is stolen, and you fabricate charges against me because I once slept with your wife, I am of questionable moral character, and it is you who are the criminal.

While your tale brings a tear to my eyes, it did not answer the very simple question. It was a segway. Taking cleardirects own words, and comparing them to your tear rendering story...the two don't jive. He said everyone was innocent because the court said so, you just admitted some people performed the telephonic abuse they were charged with. And that others' were simply caught up in it all.

Semantics.

 

[ClueByFour]

Here is the problem:

IF there was a case, the feds would have made it. They have apparently decided not to. That's more telling that whether or not Lee Seeham (who would sue anything that moved if he thought he'd get paid) filed a civil suit.

 

[Megasnoop]

The post merger CASM (that of the NEW USAirways) is higher than the CASM of AWA. Simple subtraction will yield the impact of the inefficiency of the OLD USAirways.

Or maybe its that East unionized employees (pilots excepted) make higher hourly rates, like in a living wage.

AWA relied on productivity and efficiency to generate profits where airlines such as US could not. Now the higher costs are making it difficult if not impossible to make profits in those very same markets.

If low wages equals productivity and efficiency, I guess your right.

I guess you dont realize a Federal Jury and Judge agreed that USAPA FAILED in their Duty of Fair Representation to the West.

A jury decided the verdict. Wake's instructions just made sure it was the one he wanted. Thats what the appeal is all about.

Back to the time-worn LOA93/84 pay increase debate Janury 2010. Its been beaten to death, but one thing no one mentioned. During LOA93 negotiations, the company had in mind an incremental reinstatement of LOA84 wages, so we'd get it all back I think over 10 years. I dont know why, but in their infinite wisdom, the our ALPA NC decided to ask for it all back at once, January 2010. Point is, theres plenty of notes on intent to make the case for full pay reinstatement when we arbitrate. It makes little diifference what Parker and Kirby spout off. Too bad they didnt do their diligence before putting this mess together. Or maybe they did, thinking theyd either have contract signed before 2010 (5 years out) or that theyd sell off the place and not have to deal with it.

Whatever way LOA 84 goes, the 9th expedited appeals schedule most guarantees a decision long before the anti-USAPA-types can get out their representation vote, IF they can get 50%+1 to sign cards. Timetable for a vote: cards (if there are enough) handed in no early than April 17, 2010. Then 3-4 months for NMB investigation, protests, before 30 days of voting. That's how the USAPA/ALPA timeline went out. Even if the appeal somehow doesn't go our way, we should have closure on LOA93/84 before an election is complete. I cant see even the most die-hard Anti-USAPA East pilot voting against USAPA on the eve of that arbitration decision. Because with ALPA back on property, I doubt we'd see them continue to support the arbitration. ALPAs more into negotiating and giveing away than arbitration. The prize for their West and East fans with ALPA back: NIC plus no LOA84 pay rates. ALPA has no choice on NIC, otherwise they get DFRed. IMHO, USAPA had a DOH/NIC choice, ALPA didnt. Appeals court will decide.

Sorry to hp and all you other West posters, but we're going to get our appeal finished before you have a shot at removing usapa. Your 3-4 year time line doesn't hold up, does it? Meanwhile, your attempts at Chicago Way politics arent going to get rid of our BPR resolve or replace them, much less replace USAPA before the appeal and the arbitration run their course. Time isnt on your side especially with expedited appeal.

Slump? I aint in no slump. I just aint hitting. Yogi Berra

 

[nycbusdriver]

I have a many friends at UAL, and guess what? The secret is out....USAPA tried to pull a fast one. Will they vote for USAPA?

Well, I have many friends at United, too. And all those pilots I know even have brothers-in-law that are mechanics, and they're married to flight attendants. And they all "hate you guys."

So THERE!

 

[exB717Flyer]

A jury decided the verdict. Wake's instructions just made sure it was the one he wanted. Thats what the appeal is all about.

If that's all the appeal is about then you might as well throw in the towel now. Got news for you: a federal judge is allowed to have a legal opinion about a case and he's allowed to instruct the jury according to his opinion. I guess you'll just have to stick to counselor's Seham's superior interpretation of case law to fuel your appeal. Are you 'supremely confident' like your Dear Leader President Cleary is?

 

[des nudo]

The issue with the RICO lawsuit is that it lumped individuals who were totally innocent of any wrongdoing with others who actually were tied to mischevous acts such as calling the toll free number.
Some of the defendants were caught with their phone numbers making numerous calls. OK, they are probably not innocent, but are also not guilty of racketeering.The AWAPPA board, by allowing a web forum may have unintentionally abetted these acts, but again racketeering is an over the top charge, and a misuse of the RICO act.

RICO's broad application was the result of Congress' inclusion of mail and wire fraud as two crimes upon which a RICO claim could be brought.


Today, RICO is almost never applied to the Mafia. Instead, it is applied to individuals, businesses, political protest groups, and terrorist organizations. In short, a RICO claim can arise in almost any context.
You sure?....

just a little context for your "misuse" claim.

 

[luvn737s]

If low wages equals productivity and efficiency, I guess your right.

It's understandable that you might have a misunderstanding about productivity and efficiency. It's all about utilizing your assets to get the most from them (i.e. aircraft utilization, proper hub planning, etc.). True, AWA's wages were nothing to crow about (until recently and only when compared to LOA93) but the usual song and dance included not having the market muscle to raise wages. Well, now we do, and it's the bizarre excuse for a union that is disinterested if it means swallowing their pride and re-writing their constitution.

I cant see even the most die-hard Anti-USAPA East pilot voting against USAPA on the eve of that arbitration decision. Because with ALPA back on property, I doubt we'd see them continue to support the arbitration.

More German beer? ALPA would be obliged to support and defend the arbitration or risk a DFR of their own. What ALPA couldn't do is a Wye River II. Wakes decision protects the west pilots from that as well. ALPA has the resources to simultaneously pursue the snap-back and negotiate a new contract. But they won't hitch their emotional wagons to going after a dead-end grievance either (and they are probably smart enough not to file a grievance before any grievable action has taken place).

What ALPA will do is bring an end to the petty east-west feud. Pilots from both sides will have the confidence to participate in their union without fear of being tarred as a supporter of a union that divided the pilot group and spent so much to do so little.

Every pilot group has personalities associated with their confrontations and failures. The successes are largely anonymous and forgotten. But, there will come a time when those who stubbornly refused to modify their seniority integration negotiating position will too be forgotten and the bigger issues will be fought. Everyone won't be in agreement then either. But progress, as halting and inconsistent as it is, will be made once the distraction of the filed USAPA experiment is behind us.

 

[hp_fa]

Sorry to hp and all you other West posters, but we're going to get our appeal finished before you have a shot at removing usapa. Your 3-4 year time line doesn't hold up, does it? Meanwhile, your attempts at Chicago Way politics arent going to get rid of our BPR resolve or replace them, much less replace USAPA before the appeal and the arbitration run their course. Time isnt on your side especially with expedited appeal.

No need to apologize although you seemed to make a big deal about me being wrong on the Ninth Circuit expediting the appeal. I already posted elsewhere about the reasons I thought that was, specifically that they normally don't expedite and I did not think that the appellants would take no position on the Motion to Expedite. As I stated in that explanation to Utterly, it might not be good news in the long term that the appeal is being heard earlier rather than later, especially if Wake is upheld.

Oh, and why is USAPA seemingly making a big deal about the motion being granted when it was unopposed? Is SSM&P so desperate for a win at anything that they and the BPR need to trumpet an unopposed "victory'? As another's poster's name states, be careful what you wish for.....

 

[Barrister]

Wouldn't a UAL/LCC merger go like this? The Bond-McKaskill legislation forces the integration to go to arbitration. The United pilots decide that they don't like the outcome. They then disregard the arbitration award (because it is just a suggestion and not really binding) and negotiate a new list with the company using their numerical majority. LCC pilots get stapled to the bottom. Oh and they get some conditions and restrictions as decided by the UAL pilots to protect their "unmerged expectations."

Isn't that fair? Majority rules. Arbitration isn't binding. Seniority is negotiable.

Seems to me the East pilots may want to lose that appeal in the Ninth Circuit. They may not want the precedent to be that the majority gets to roll over the minority.

Not suprisingly, you missed the point entirely!!!

 

[Barrister]

AHHHH HAAAA!

Attitude! There is IMO no excuse for some of the attitudes displayed on both sides. However there are reasons for it and oddly enough those reasons are about the only thing in common that the two groups have.

There is a profound difference between a reason and an excuse for an action or attitude.

Both groups have arrived to this point from what in many ways are the same circumstances and I can well understand their attitudes. How did these attitudes come to pass?

Well in any company it's the Management team at the top that sets the tone of the organization. This is undeniable as all one need do is look to the success of B6 & WN for proof.

It has been widely written that both US and HP (prior to the arrival of DP) suffered from bad management. HP had Franke and US had Schofield,Wolf, Seigel & Colodny.

Both had/have histories of rancorous labor relations with US being worse than HP, though it was never hats and horns on the HP side even during the Parker regime.

All of these factors created a work force with some pretty ugly attitudes by the time September 2005 rolled around. Both sides were determined not to give an inch due to the above history and the attitudes formed as a result of the history. Fear, Jealousy & Resentment are powerful emotions. Emotions that were often fanned IMO by Labor Relations using the typical union busting playbook maneuver of divide and conquer.

While much of what is said on this thread disgusts me as a customer I completely understand why it happens. Over the years the managements of both airlines unknowingly set the tone with its employees that allowed this "perfect storm" of bad labor relations to fester and boil and bring us to where we are today.

Where we are today is that like it not, no matter what the courts rule, USAPA conceivably has the votes and therefore the ultimate power to force US into Chapter 7. Given the attitudes displayed and created by YEARS of bad management it's a real possibility that is could happen.

If US does go under as a result it will be Doug Parkers legacy as no one outside the bizzaro world of aviation will remember Franke, Wolf and those who've gone before and are the real authors of this chapter in US Airways history.

I am not entirely in agreement with this. If you strip away the fluff it ain't about the West guys....it is about a senile 80 year old who got it very wrong in our opinion. The West will own he list in 10 years and NIC ignores that. What is true is that there would be no US is not for the givebacks by the East....and what did they get for it.....a sharp poke in the eye with a stick.... by NIC.

VNIIMN

 

[HPearlyretiree]

I am not entirely in agreement with this. If you strip away the fluff it ain't about the West guys....it is about a senile 80 year old who got it very wrong in our opinion. The West will own he list in 10 years and NIC ignores that. What is true is that there would be no US is not for the givebacks by the East....and what did they get for it.....a sharp poke in the eye with a stick.... by NIC.

VNIIMN

Ah, so Nicolau is senile, Wake is on the take, and the whole world is conspiring against the east pilots who are just angelic and can do no wrong.

Oh my. Get the shovel.

Whether you like it or not, your side entered into a BINDING agreement with Nicolau. And, then, they cried and whined when they didn't like it, so they used bully thug tactics to form a new union, which was put together to get out of what they agreed to. And, it was found DFR by a judge and jury, remember?

Its like going all in at a poker game, then asking for your money back because you lost. Very childish.

The east caused all this mess by their actions, and you all will lose in the 9th circuit, then I expect you all to cast aspersions on the 9th circuit and say that they were all in on the conspiracy?

 

[luvn737s]

While the east did make sacrifices, they redeemed that coupon by keeping a place to work up until the merger. The previous sacrifices (on either side) do not count during the seniority integration.

USAPA should be explaining this and setting realistic expectations.