US Pilots Labor Discussion-Aug 5 to 12-KEEP ON TOPIC

[Barrister]

The post merger CASM (that of the NEW USAirways) is higher than the CASM of AWA. Simple subtraction will yield the impact of the inefficiency of the OLD USAirways.

AWA relied on productivity and efficiency to generate profits where airlines such as US could not. Now the higher costs are making it difficult if not impossible to make profits in those very same markets. Think of it as the Titanic Effect.

No....lets call it the "Phoenix is an economic wasteland effect"

 

[Barrister]

I believe there is a percentage. If one group is a sertain size larger than the other there is a vote before.



This state clearly any successor union must use the Nicolau. Change names to usapa II. It is the Nicolau. Change to ALPA, Nicolau. Merge with UAL, ALPA uses Nicolau.

You misunderstood. When I said the the two would be close. I meant they would be close between ALPA arbitration and A/M arbitration. Not the Nicolau and another arbitration. Nicolau said each merger turns on it's own facts. A different merger will bring a different result. The furloughs may be handled differently. The next one may not protect WB flying. The next one could have fances. Who knows.

So it does not matter if we vote before or after. The results will be close. But either way. In a merger, usapa will be gone.

Well now lets get logical for a change ....NIC comes back to do the UAL/ U mrger. The top 2500 UAL guys go on the top cause they are widebody pilots then the top 517 U guys go on top.........oh no how an I gonna do this.....a ratio....no they are all old......slotting........no they all fly widebodies.......oh hell ok the top 3000 go DOH and I will slot everyone else......that's it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

 

[luvn737s]

Yea Luvn, that why one of your bases is practically closed and the other one will eventually be closed. NOT gloating at all.... it sucks. But you see, we have been there.....none of you WANT to come east but 1700 of you eventually WILL be based here, that it why....VNIIMN

I was mistaken in calling it the Titanic Effect. It is more properly termed the Ebola Effect.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Yea Luvn, that why one of your bases is practically closed and the other one will eventually be closed. NOT gloating at all.... it sucks. But you see, we have been there.....none of you WANT to come east but 1700 of you eventually WILL be based here, that it why....VNIIMN

Attitudes like yours are why US was lying in a coffin with dirt being poured on. Once the company gets rid of the angry old anchors, the better off it will be.

 

[nic4us]

Yea Luvn, that why one of your bases is practically closed and the other one will eventually be closed. NOT gloating at all.... it sucks. But you see, we have been there.....none of you WANT to come east but 1700 of you eventually WILL be based here, that it why....VNIIMN

Well, so far the only base closure has been PIT. LGA may not be around as long as LAS if LAS is indeed practically closed.

Just a little history, LAS was opened, with great reluctance by the company, after years of proding from vocals in the pilot group who wanted to rid their lines of those pesky redeye banks we flew out af LAS. There are less than 200 pilots based there and very few F/As have ever been based there.

How big a base is LGA?

I suppose eventually the largest crew base in the system... i.e. PHX... could close, but what an inconvenience that would cause all the corporate officers over in Tempe, as the direct flights to anywhere would go away also. Doug wants to go to the All Star game in STL, has to connect thru CLT. Scott wants to go to Disneyworld, no more direct flights to MCO. PHX may eventually close, but if it does there will be no CLT or PHL to be based in, as there will be no USAirways.

 

[cactusboy53]

Have at least a dozen friends at UAL. An election between USAPA and ALPA would be very close. A large (didn't say majority) of UAL guys hate ALPA

I have a many friends at UAL, and guess what? The secret is out....USAPA tried to pull a fast one. Will they vote for USAPA? Let's see the USAPA report card:

1. A new contract in weeks / months? NOPE
2. Date Hire seniority list (you know.....the "gold standard")? NOPE
3. Truly represents ALL 5000 US Airways pilots fairly? NOPE
4. Gave the officers a HUGE raise? YOU BETCHA!!
5. Bought new cars for travel needs.......and not cheap ones? YUP

Add to that spending over 2 million in legal fees for a slam dunk, and the very real possibility of assessments for damages caused'. I'm going to have to assign an "F" (as in D F R)

I don't think you should count those UAL votes for USAPA just quite yet.

 

[cleardirect]

So...according to your Court-worshipping "logic" there....OJay was clearly "Not Gulity" of those murders then? I mean..really; there's clearly no room in that world-view for any semblance of common sense, and "You can only say that if a proper court says so." after all.

Folks..one just couldn't ever even begin to make that sort of nonsense up. :blink:

Yes always to the OJ case.

So in your world the simple fact that charges were filed and you believe them make someone guilty.

Well the DOL is crawling all over usapa this week. Accusations have been made, an investagation is underway. Therefore they must be guilty right? No need for a judge or jury to find them guilty. All you have to do is believe it.

That is why we have trials to determine facts and guilty or innocence. When the judge dismisses. The law has determined them not guilty. It is not a difficult concept.

What defies logic is to continue to cling to a lie and false charges. What you should be upset about is the $239,000 wasted just to be proven wrong.

How many Ford automobiles would that have bought for the officers?

 

[cleardirect]

Yea Luvn, that why one of your bases is practically closed and the other one will eventually be closed. NOT gloating at all.... it sucks. But you see, we have been there.....none of you WANT to come east but 1700 of you eventually WILL be based here, that it why....VNIIMN

Even though you have it backwards. as PIT was closed and LGA is about to be.

But assuming you are right. Just how would those wonderful C&R that usapa so happily proposed would protect the west? Seham has admitted in court docs that straight DOH would be unfair and harm the west.

If PHX closed it would be stright DOH. So self admitting you wish to do harm to the west.

Nice.

Thank you my union brother. And you wonder why nine jurors found usapa liable for DFR.

 

[des nudo]

But assuming you are right. Just how would those wonderful C&R that usapa so happily proposed would protect the west? Seham has admitted in court docs that straight DOH would be unfair and harm the west.

If PHX closed it would be stright DOH. So self admitting you wish to do harm to the west.

Nice.

Thank you my union brother. And you wonder why nine jurors found usapa liable for DFR.

Fascinating twist. So the CR's that preserve each sides pre-merger status are unacceptable.

Those CR's keep west with what they had, and keep east with what they had...but thats not OK with you.

Why?

Because in the face of shrinking domiciles, you want to run east and steal positions.

Your shrinking domiciles (LAS) is what you "brought to the merger" Its what your west career expectation is handing you...none of that is the East's fault.

Amazing how entitled you think you are.

 

[700UW]

I guess you dont realize a Federal Jury and Judge agreed that USAPA FAILED in their Duty of Fair Representation to the West.

Where have you been for the past several months?

 

[oscarjazz]

Well now lets get logical for a change ....NIC comes back to do the UAL/ U mrger. The top 2500 UAL guys go on the top cause they are widebody pilots then the top 517 U guys go on top.........oh no how an I gonna do this.....a ratio....no they are all old......slotting........no they all fly widebodies.......oh hell ok the top 3000 go DOH and I will slot everyone else......that's it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Wouldn't a UAL/LCC merger go like this? The Bond-McKaskill legislation forces the integration to go to arbitration. The United pilots decide that they don't like the outcome. They then disregard the arbitration award (because it is just a suggestion and not really binding) and negotiate a new list with the company using their numerical majority. LCC pilots get stapled to the bottom. Oh and they get some conditions and restrictions as decided by the UAL pilots to protect their "unmerged expectations."

Isn't that fair? Majority rules. Arbitration isn't binding. Seniority is negotiable.

Seems to me the East pilots may want to lose that appeal in the Ninth Circuit. They may not want the precedent to be that the majority gets to roll over the minority.

 

[Bear96]

Yes always to the OJ case.

I have made this observation before. It is fascinating (and pathetic and desparate) that certain Easties keep pointing to the OJ case - which was a criminal rather than a civil case, and in a state court as opposed to a federal court in a different state - as proof of how the entire American justice system has no validity and therefore USAPA should have prevailed. Quite a stretch of logic.

Of course, the OJ *civil* case did find OJ liable. In EastUS' eyes, was that a wrong verdict too, since it came out of the American justice system? Funny how people in EastUS' camp never point to that verdict.

 

[des nudo]

I guess you dont realize a Federal Jury and Judge agreed that USAPA FAILED in their Duty of Fair Representation to the West.

Where have you been for the past several months?

yes yes..we all have the AZ court ruling tatooed on our foreheads. Of course, subject to an appeal. And USAPA has already indicated that pending an appeal, they will comply. That has no bearing on the fairness of "pre-merger expectations" which has been trampled by the Nic, and consequently has the potential to allow fearful west pilots to run east...as cleardirect just admitted. The objective of no winfall was ignored by Nic, and the west intend to capitalize on that fact. I'll not persuade you, and conversely, you'll not persuade me. It's the way it is.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Those CR's keep west with what they had, and keep east with what they had...but thats not OK with you.

Of course it's not okay because DOH makes the West your furlough-fodder. Furloughs go by reverse-seniority order and are never affected by C&Rs.

Reasonably speaking, after a merger furloughs should be shared by both sides. The Nicolau list achieves that. Your wet-dream list doesn't. But why am I wasting keystrokes lecturing you on court established facts? Dunno.

 

[exB717Flyer]

yes yes..we all have the AZ court ruling tatooed on our foreheads.

Not a good place for it. You have to look in the mirror to see it.

And USAPA has already indicated that pending an appeal, they will comply.

You don't have to worry about that. Your Dear Leader President Cleary has stated he's "supremely confident" you'll win the appeal. You can't lose!