US Pilots Labor Discussion-Aug 5 to 12-KEEP ON TOPIC

[des nudo]

RICO

237 grand to try to bury 18 individual pilots for trumped up, phony charges. All in order to frighten one or more to bite off on an attempted coerced false confession

Quite right...those documented phone calls by the hundreds NEVER happened.
The open bragging about thousands of minutes on the SAFETY line on the west chatboard was a pure coincidence...NEVER happened.

NONE of it ever happened.

Brilliant.

Disgusting.

So "West".

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Quite right...those documented phone calls by the hundreds NEVER happened.
The open bragging about thousands of minutes on the SAFETY line on the west chatboard was a pure coincidence...NEVER happened.

NONE of it ever happened.

Brilliant.

Disgusting.

So "West".

That's the smoke screen you guys used anyway. Did you ever read Judge Reidinger's dismissal? Most of the named individuals merely posted on a web board about such things as jumpseats and dues.

Not one named defendant, not one, was linked with the SAFETY hotline.

Maybe you should read all the documents.

All that defensive bs is a big SMOKE SCREEN.

 

[jetjok1]

Did or did not the West MEC demand the East pay rates not be brought up to parity with the West rates? Have not numerous West posters espoused that "YOU can live on LOA 93" battle cry? So you can take the "Exactly whose fault is that" qoute in whichever context you'd like. We will, and we'll continue to benefit from new routes, and East attrition. Although we didn't have the insight to get hired by the lowest paid/worst compensated carrier in the industry, we have had had ample opportunity to learn patience/perseverance after being kicked in the stomach by numerous management teams.

I've worked for both airlines. Good luck on the West pilots coming anywhere near what I made, salary-wise, East vs West. It's not even close. Actually not even in the ballpark. I, personally, want this thing put together but, in all honesty, I see no end in site. I see no single CBA! This is a disgusting airline with disgusting people associated with it.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE
(EastUS @ Aug 5 2009, 07:30 PM) *
So far...there's been absolutely ZERO viable, or even half-azzed attempts at answering the basic, seemingly very reasonable question = "What person, in their even remotely right mind, would see ANY benefits to caving in and bending over for the nic obscenity at the present time?"

More pay and better work rules. Some pilots actually desire these things.

Ah! Silly me! My mistake then! Clearly; all that's needed is to immediately cave in and bend over for the nic obscenity..and all east pilots would be instantly drowning in oceans of gold! Sigh...You'll have to excuse me....sometimes..I just forget that bizarre little fantasy you have out west about that..and here I'd thought that, should the union succeed in the LOA resolutions, that the east would be gaining MUCH better pay than is enjoyed out west, while still remaining "nic free" and in separate operations, regardless of whatever transpires in court per addington. "Naturally"..we all "know" that isn't even at ALL possible though...

Needless to say; getting the $70 million's also just a complete waste of time for the east pilots/etc. The real ticket is to cave in for nic right now, sign up for another pathetic contract immediately, and just drop those other considerations by the wayside...for no gain whatsoever....and....I'm guessing that you're now "honestly" suggesting that choosing that course would actually "make sense" for the east? 🙄

Ok. You've convinced me with that "rational" argument you put forth. Where do I sign?

 

[EastUS]

In addition, I'd quess the West would support none of their furloughed members be considered as part of the active list, since that is their position with concerns for the Nic.

They'd be both logically and morally bound to drop them all as utterly meaningless people, per all that "fair and equitable"..."integrity matters" and no "brought jobs to the merger"/etc, ad nauseum.

 

[EastUS]

If anything, ALPA is the renegade union! It is a collection of incestuous power mongers who would sell their own mothers for their own personal gain.

Likely children as well...and even abuse innocent and helpless goats in "art films"

 

[EastUS]

So, does anyone want to play the hypothetical game?

Indeed Hp. I'd think that it'd be a most interesting can of worms to open in any case. I'm not at all certain that any industry precedent for the proposed scenario even exists. I'd imagine that we're talking about new turf to explore here.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Yes...in other venues, it's called a gang...who engage in illegal activity...successfully.

The entire airline community is well-read on your activities...

It's a sickening display of "solidarity" to pull off criminal behavior as a group...and then brag about it.

(you should investigate a gang tatoo)

Hyperbole alert!

USAPA, a group created to screw the west. How'd that work out for ya?

 

[Barrister]

Let's do a hypothetical and assume solely for the purpose of this discussion that UA wants to merge with US. Let's also assume that UA's pilots have concerns over any such menrger, well they would have a lot of concerns, but the main one is the current standing of the Nicolau and USAPA mess and they signal to UA that they want something more concrete than the current situation. UA communicates this concern to US.

US now has a problem. They want the hypothetical merger but are unsure how to address this concern. They have been dismissed from the lawsuit and now lack standing to bring anything before the Court, but at the same time the Court has shown sympathy for the rights of the company to continue in business and to make legitimate business decisions. The Court is also restricted in its jurisdiction of the case while it is on appeal to issues surrounding the permanent injunction and the application for attorneys fees.

Normally I would think that the non-party company would simply ask for a confidentiality agreement from the union and then ask the union to present the court with an in camera proceeding (essentially a secret proceeding) and present a sworn affidavit from the company explaining the problem and asking for the Court's intervention to attempt to clear the issue. However, USAPA would not likely be inclined to do so since it has little to gain and much to lose. The Addington plaintiffs might be more receptive and they have standing before the Court, but just exactly who would the company seek a confidentiality agreement from and how would that agreement be as binding as it normally would be against a company bargaining agent? Add to that the fact that if it became known that the Court was dealing with an in camera issue that speculation would be rife and the "quiet period" before a major transaction would be blown to hell.

So, does anyone want to play the hypothetical game?

 

[cleardirect]

I don't believe their would be any mechanism for a representational election once a merger is announced. There are currently two seperate unions and that's the way it would stay pending the integration, unless ALPA is voted back prior to a merger. Zero chance of this happening in my opinion.

Successor union does not state to be used in a new merger. I believe it is dealing with a new union if it is voted onto the current property before a joint contract is reached. Therefore I do not believe the Nic has to be used as the starting position for future mergers before it is actually imbedded in an actual contract.

You can say the arbitration will be similar, how do you think the West furloughed pilots would like it to go, just like the Nic?

I believe there is a percentage. If one group is a sertain size larger than the other there is a vote before.

Findings of facts page 52.
The Court also rejects USAPA’s bold request that the injunction dissolve upon a failed vote to ratify a new CBA containing the Nicolau Award. The duty of fair
representation requires USAPA and any successor union to bargain for the implementation of the Nicolau Award.

This state clearly any successor union must use the Nicolau. Change names to usapa II. It is the Nicolau. Change to ALPA, Nicolau. Merge with UAL, ALPA uses Nicolau.

You misunderstood. When I said the the two would be close. I meant they would be close between ALPA arbitration and A/M arbitration. Not the Nicolau and another arbitration. Nicolau said each merger turns on it's own facts. A different merger will bring a different result. The furloughs may be handled differently. The next one may not protect WB flying. The next one could have fances. Who knows.

So it does not matter if we vote before or after. The results will be close. But either way. In a merger, usapa will be gone.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Did or did not the West MEC demand the East pay rates not be brought up to parity with the West rates?

We did. That is, up until the East petulantly withdrew from joint contract negotiations in 2007. Surely you don't expect us to support the East when they don't even abide binding arbitration?

Have not numerous West posters espoused that "YOU can live on LOA 93" battle cry?

Unfortunately, yes, but I believe it's an appropriate response to the East posters who espouse "you'll never see the Nic list implemented".

Although we didn't have the insight to get hired by the lowest paid/worst compensated carrier in the industry, we have had had ample opportunity to learn patience/perseverance after being kicked in the stomach by numerous management teams.

Ooh, a classy ad hominem insult. Adds so much to the discussion.

 

[Edward]

Again folks, what is it that you all do not undestand about personal attacks & comments. Posts have been removed & time off awaits. PLEASE think before you post. Thank you.

 

[cleardirect]

Oh, my night is fine...thanks.

As I said...a criminal activity well-construed.

They walked.

They were guilty...the crime WAS commited....phones don't ring by themselves...do they?

It's not a perfect world...is it?

Adios.

Des,

You continue to demonstrate your ignorance of the legal system. An accusation does not make anyone guilty. The judge dismissed usapa’s outrageous allegations with prejudice. That means don’t come back to my court with this garbage.

So no they are not guilty. You can only say that if a proper court says so. Just like judge Wake said that usapa is liable. That is a fact. The RICO defendants are not guilty, that is a fact. The charges were so out of the ball park that the judge was not even going to waste the courts time looking any further than he did.

Maybe you could quote the law that says a ringing phone is a crime. Get your facts straight. An accusation of someone calling the safety hotline was made. No evidence was presented and no name was attached to the false charge.

Continuing to call someone guilty after you know the facts could be considered defamation. It would be a good idea to move on from something you know nothing about.

 

[fr8tmastr]

How dare those East pilots actually want to keep flying the same lines in the same aircraft in the same base for the same company. Anyone can clearly see they are trying to steal from the West. Just the other day I heard an East FO begging to get the PHX-LAS turn based out of CLT.

 

[USCREW]

How dare those East pilots actually want to keep flying the same lines in the same aircraft in the same base for the same company. Anyone can clearly see they are trying to steal from the West. Just the other day I heard an East FO begging to get the PHX-LAS turn based out of CLT.

you guys crack me up...that was funny.