US Pilots Labor Discussion-Aug 5 to 12-KEEP ON TOPIC

[oldiebutgoody]

Maybe they'll just appeal to Judge Wake so that he can attempt the rewrite MORE labor laws. Hey, what's a few more?

 

[luvthe9]

I was sent a message tonight from a pilot that said that 3 PHX pilots and 1 CLT pilot was fired for not paying their Union Dues under Section 29. There will be more firings in the near future.

If pilots are not up to date on their union dues, I would suggest that they make arrangements to get up to date on their dues.

OH WELL!!!!

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Maybe they'll just appeal to Judge Wake so that he can attempt the rewrite MORE labor laws. Hey, what's a few more?

Again, we see the demonization of Judge Wake rather than owning up to what USAPA did.

 

[cleardirect]

Well, well. The transformation is complete. For so long, we read about informed impartiality....

Interesting that you admit not knowing any details at all, and yet show your true side all too clearly. Perhaps the 15 day "pay up now" opportunity was exhausted...in which case the union is not required to extend ANY type of repayment terms...including wire transfer.
I don't know, and neither do you. But that is what you tell Savior Wake if it's day 19 of the 15 day "pay up" window. On the other hand, it is not the responsibility of the union to alter their dues receivables policy in the 11th hour to stave off the axe for pilots who know exactly what section 29 says, and have been properly notified of their processing under that section.

It's quite simple, really.

I find it interesting that you have no problem with the union firing the people they represent. So I guess that if there is a possibility for the union to save a job when the company wants to terminate. They should throw their hands up and say. No chance for a last minute opportunity.

Remind me again what the purpose of usapa is? To DFR the west and try everything they can to break deals, steal jobs and fire west pilots.

Nice union you guys put together.

Oh well Karma can be cruel.

 

[luvthe9]

Again, we see the demonization of Judge Wake rather than owning up to what USAPA did.

It's not a "demonization" of the judge he's only human and made some mistakes, that's why we have appeals courts.

 

[nic4us]

b] For purposes of this Section 29, the
word “assessment(s)â€￾ shall not include assessments
directed towards strike, corporate campaign,
or other activities creating negative publicity against
the Company.

(Agency shop)
(Pilot delinquent in
dues payment
subject to
discharge[/i]

Taken from the AWA contract verbatim. Which part of this is hard to understand?

This part is a little confusing. I would read this as if the union takes out a USA Today add with the sole purpose of creating negative publicity against the company, I am not required to pay towards the collection of money allowing said negative publicity to occur. Did USAPA use dues money to pay for that embarrassing fuel add?

 

[cleardirect]

Maybe they'll just appeal to Judge Wake so that he can attempt the rewrite MORE labor laws. Hey, what's a few more?

So when the ninth upholds judge Wake. What is the excuse going to be then?

Have you starting working on that yet?

 

[nic4us]

Maybe they'll just appeal to Judge Wake so that he can attempt the rewrite MORE labor laws. Hey, what's a few more?

Maybe the company (not willing to risk wrongful termination) will side with the effected pilots (as they had done with Sussie) and tell the union to shove it up their USAPA.

 

[hp_fa]

Well, well. The transformation is complete. For so long, we read about informed impartiality....

Impartiality doesn't mean that I can't say something is stupid if it occurs.

If you noticed I didn't opine about the issue of pilots potentially being terminated because of nonpayment of dues or fees. The officers and the BPR clearly have the means to do that via the constitution and by-laws. My comments were directed to the issue of excluding some BPR members from being told what the other BPR members learned, specifically the names of the pilots. That action clearly established the actual workings of the top tier of USAPA management and that they are not following their own rule book. You will also note that I also said that I didn't think that USAPA would actually have been that stupid when I admitted being "surprised" by their action(s). They obviously had not learned anything from their little tour through a federal district court.

USAPA management is a walking, talking and continuing example of a breach of their duty of fair representation. That observation does not require me to be partial to either side, but merely takes the skill of observation and at least a little common sense.

 

[ROACLT]

Impartiality doesn't mean that I can't say something is stupid if it occurs.

If you noticed I didn't opine about the issue of pilots potentially being terminated because of nonpayment of dues or fees. The officers and the BPR clearly have the means to do that via the constitution and by-laws. My comments were directed to the issue of excluding some BPR members from being told what the other BPR members learned, specifically the names of the pilots. That action clearly established the actual workings of the top tier of USAPA management and that they are not following their own rule book. You will also note that I also said that I didn't think that USAPA would actually have been that stupid when I admitted being "surprised" by their action(s). They obviously had not learned anything from their little tour through a federal district court.

USAPA management is a walking, talking and continuing example of a breach of their duty of fair representation. That observation does not require me to be partial to either side, but merely takes the skill of observation and at least a little common sense.

Since you are not a member of the BPR, your information and deductions are based off of hearsay from people hostile to the East and you call yourself a lawyer? Post some facts or official minutes instead of web board banter.

 

[hp_fa]

Since you are not a member of the BPR, your information and deductions are based off of hearsay from people hostile to the East and you call yourself a lawyer? Post some facts or official minutes instead of web board banter.

No, I am not a lawyer. I also do my best to separate rumor from fact. After I had made my first post yesterday I was independently advised by a source that knows that the story was true, specifically that the information was intentionally withheld from the PHX and LAS BPR members.

 

[luvthe9]

I find it interesting that you have no problem with the union firing the people they represent. So I guess that if there is a possibility for the union to save a job when the company wants to terminate. They should throw their hands up and say. No chance for a last minute opportunity.

Are you talking about the union you west guys sent sh*t in the mail to, ran up phone bills, refused to join at any cost, said you would cross any picket line (no surprise there) did not support the east in pay pairity. And now you want a "last minute opportunity". This is by far you funniest post yet.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

NO!! If memory serves hp_fa is or was a paralegal and as such has a great deal to add in helping "regular" folks understand the complexities and somewhat arcane nature of Labor law.

While "hearsay" may not be admissable in court it is indeed the fuel that makes the internet run. Take away hearsay and this board would be a blank page.

I for one appreciate the efforts of hp_fa for attempting to present a generally unbiased point of view in a highly contentious and rancorous environment.

I understand why everyone has a hair trigger temper on here as a lot is at stake. I've tried hard to understand both sides anf hp_fa has for me been a big help.

My conclusions thus far are:

DOH or LOS is the simplest way to integrate seniority. It leaves little to debate and therefore could have been done swiftly and surely. Additionally some provisions could have been created to make it more equitable.

ALPA in my view has more to do with things being where they are more than any single entity. ALPA was looking to preserve the status quo and not ruffle the feathers of other larger member airlines. Their self serving agenda was so obvious that Stevie Wonder could see it. IMO at no time did ALPA have the best interests of either pilot group. Both groups were sacrificed for ALPA and their agenda hidden or otherwise.

Both parties agreed to abide by the arbitrators ruling. For reasons known only to the founding members of USAPA they decided to wiggle out of the agreement. It also appears to me that AOL and certain HP pilots fired what could be called the first shot in this war and that in my opinion was ill advised as it caused the East Group to circle the wagons

IMO USAPA's legal counsel stinks on ice. Do the phrase" Useless as teets on a bul" have any meaning. Judge Wake decided to take the most narrow interpretation of the laws associated with the situation and that hurt USAPA's chances. Lee Seham is alledgedly an experienced Aviation Labor attorney and he as near as I can tell presented a pizz poor case and got his arse handed to him.

USAPA passed the point of no return months ago and as a result have painted themselves into a rather precarious position. IMO Everything from this point onward will be decided by a judge and/or jury. As long as that remains the case the wound will NEVER heal and US Airways will forever be two airlines until every last member of the current list is retired or leaves.

Please don't bother to attack me or debate the above it's just what I have observed from my particular Point of View. It might be worth a few sheets of Charmin but it's what I see and that you cannot change

I can't disagree with most of what you wrote. I particularly agree with you about ALPA! They are an incestuous little group at the top, only concerned with their own behinds and what they want rather than ever concern themselves with the rank and file.

They must have had a collective coronary when USAPA was certified. It is my view that if USAPA wins at the 9th, and the win stands, then can United be far behind in dumping ALPA? This could be the beginning of ALPA's house of cards falling.

I happen to like Scotts but your Charmin works for me just fine.

 

[oscarjazz]

DOH or LOS is the simplest way to integrate seniority. It leaves little to debate and therefore could have been done swiftly and surely. Additionally some provisions could have been created to make it more equitable.

ALPA in my view has more to do with things being where they are more than any single entity. ALPA was looking to preserve the status quo and not ruffle the feathers of other larger member airlines. Their self serving agenda was so obvious that Stevie Wonder could see it. IMO at no time did ALPA have the best interests of either pilot group. Both groups were sacrificed for ALPA and their agenda hidden or otherwise.

PineyBob, you should look at the pay tables for any major airline, including the East and West pilots. You will find that the majority of pilot compensation is determined by the aircraft they fly and the seat they occupy and not their longevity. This is key difference between pilots and almost any other labor group and is the cause for much of the friction in pilot seniority integrations. If you are a mechanic, your pay is solely determined by longevity, therefore a longevity based integration does nothing to change your compensation. For pilots, a ten-year wide body captain makes very much more than a 20 year narrow body first officer. In fact, both pay scales involved didn't recognize any pay benefit beyond 16 years of seniority.

ALPA merger policy used to say "integrate by date of hire, and use conditions and restrictions to maintain career expectations, avoid windfalls, preserve jobs, etc." In 1986 Northwest and Republic merged. Northwest had a larger, younger pilot group that flew a lot of wide bodies, including 747's and Republic was an older pilot group that flew all narrow bodies, primarily DC-9's. ALPA merger policy was followed and a date of hire integration took place but there were 18 years of conditions and restrictions that resulted in 26 separate arbitrations to resolve conflicts. It was a disaster.

In 1991, ALPA merger policy changed and basically went to "merge it however you want but maintain career expectations, avoid windfalls, etc. etc." While you seem to paint this as some nefarious scheme by ALPA National, it was simply a recognition that date of hire doesn't work because it doesn't fit our compensation structure. No matter how many times you mashed that square peg, it wouldn't fit into a round hole.

Since ALPA merger policy changed there have been 4 major integrations, all decided by arbitration. They were all done with some type of ratio, mostly a status and category approach. Interestingly, US Air/Trump Shuttle was the first. The US Air pilots seemed to accept that outcome with no qualms since it favored them.

Somehow, you think allowing the parties to work out their own integration, or have a neutral arbitrator do it, is a vast conspiracy. If you could at least say who they are conspiring against and who they are protecting it would help in your accusation. Delta/Northwest was completed as a status and category ratio so which airline was the ALPA victim and which was the ALPA co-conspirator. Both were major airlines before the merger.

In the Airways, Am West merger, Am West was the smaller airline that had been in ALPA a shorter period of time than Airways. Airways had a pilot elected as one of the most senior officers at National. So shouldn't the America West pilots have been the victim?

The bottom line is that there is no conspiracy, ALPA doesn't care how lists are merged, they just want them merged without fighting each other. While almost all pilot seniority integrations have been contentious, everyone has managed to act like adults at the conclusion up until the East pilots popped a cork and started channeling their inner children. Their behavior is shameful. Guess what, the courts agree.

Four different aribtrations have all produced a similar result. You can believe the entire world is part of this conspiracy, or you can just look at the stupid pay charts and figure out what is the most logical conclusion. Your choice. Maybe we could work space aliens in there to complete your theory.

 

[electricjet98]

My conclusions thus far are:

It also appears to me that AOL and certain HP pilots fired what could be called the first shot in this war and that in my opinion was ill advised as it caused the East Group to circle the wagons

Piney, much of what you have said is, and has been, extensively argued. But the quote above has me questioning if you're confusing the groups...easily done. AOL was originally formed in preparation for bringing a DFR lawsuit against ALPA in the event that ALPA failed their responsibilities. By USAPA replacing ALPA, that train got derailed. Their next action was bringing a DFR lawsuit against USAPA; but that was after USAPA had formulated C&BL's and a seniority list that greatly harmed west pilots. USAPA had also brought a RICO suit in Federal Court against 24 west pilots seeking millions of dollars in damages in an attempt to financially ruin these pilots and silence all dissension amongst the west...a lawsuit that was eventually laughed out of court but still cost these pilots thousands of dollars in legal defense costs and still serves to chill discussion.

So all of this was prior to AOL's DFR lawsuit...how can you say AOL called the first shot? I would admit they drew the first blood of great signifigance!