US Pilots Labor Discussion-8/12 to 8/19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[HPDriver]

How about the West take a new look, at a DOH list with fences and restrictions,

How about not.

C & R's were proposed by the west MC and promptly disregarded by the east MC as they were directed by their leadership to come back with nothing less than DOH.

The east disengaged from talks and moved the process to mediation/arbitration with DOH being their goal.

They lost.

Reopening that would set a precedent that encourages a party to go for broke knowing that, if they make enough noise, that they can come back and negotiate again.

Not going to happen - ever.

Wake and the 9th are going finish this for the east.

 

[Metroyet]

My money goes to support my group,

That's why "your group" was found guilty of DFR. USAPA has no intention of representing "ALL" groups.


BTW, you money goes straight into Lee Sehams pocket. You have no support. FYI

 

[nic4us]

I'm proud of our union because we are rid of the evil overlord Darth Prater and his merry band of overpaid lackeys in Herndon.

2. I'll let you know in a couple months if they've done anything positive - LOA84 pay/NIC abomination/Excessive RJ's are all coming up. Let's see what happens.
cheers.

1. I would almost agree with you had not USAPA's motivation been that of weasels.

2. USAPA has already done many positive things if you are an east pilot.

They have stalled the Nic and allowed furloughed pilots to take jobs from employed pilots.
They have filed malicious lawsuits and payed high legal bills to defend their corruption.
They have taken out newspaper adds and upset the company, enabling your use of the "cactus" call sign.
They are looking in to where your pension went.
They are trying vainly to get a pay snap back, because that whole parity thing fell flat.
They are appealing a Fedral court decision, because Parker, Lakefield, the company, an arbitrator, two pilot nuetrals, a judge, nine jurors and any other sane individual with any understanding of what has transpired just do not understand that ITS NOT FAIR.

 

[nic4us]

In the last Crew News even Douggie said attitudes would have to chanege before he thought there'd be a CBA from the pilots. How about we be the ones to start and drive the rober barons from the field.

I am with you. Change my attitude. Prove to me that USAPA (i.e. the east pilots) can live up to an agreement.

 

[prechilill]

How about not.

C & R's were proposed by the west MC and promptly disregarded by the east MC as they were directed by their leadership to come back with nothing less than DOH.

The east disengaged from talks and moved the process to mediation/arbitration with DOH being their goal.

They lost.

Reopening that would set a precedent that encourages a party to go for broke knowing that, if they make enough noise, that they can come back and negotiate again.

Not going to happen - ever.

Wake and the 9th are going finish this for the east.

Excellent post. They started it, we are going to finish it. The selective memories of a few out east and others who purport to only be customers but still "in the know" either have no clue about what led up to taking the seniority talks to arbitration or they conveniently forget facts to remember things the way they want to remember them. I guess it is a coping mechanism to deal with being on the bottom of a seniority list for two decades and then realizing you aren't worth anything more than a guy hired a few months earlier from another airline. The bottom is the bottom, no matter how they want to spin it. Welcome to the airline business boys!
These past few months have been so uplifting to watch. The west's story is truly one of David and Goliath and it is so much fun to be watching the beast going down.
Welcome to the airlines!

 

[nycbusdriver]

Yippee. How does it feel to be proud of a union that hasn't produced anything positive, but since the dues are the same you feel you're getting a good value?

Hasn't produced anything positive?

How about keeping the east pilots' attrition for the east pilots intact? That's very positive, at least from my non-official perspective. Worth every penny of dues.

USAPA found evidence of scope and minimum hour violations by the company against the west pilots, and will likely prevail. USAPA might have "not noticed" these violations of your contract, but they really are the union for the west pilots.

USAPA soundly smacked the company's knuckles over the "fuel school" issue. Not only have they backed away from their novel policy, even some of the pilots originally scheduled for the "procedure" were told not to bother showing up.

USAPA has been very effective in my opinion. It's a great improvement over ALPA, but that really doesn't say a whole lot as ALPA was frigging awful.

 

[flypg]

Excellent post. They started it, we are going to finish it. The selective memories of a few out east and others who purport to only be customers but still "in the know" either have no clue about what led up to taking the seniority talks to arbitration or they conveniently forget facts to remember things the way they want to remember them. I guess it is a coping mechanism to deal with being on the bottom of a seniority list for two decades and then realizing you aren't worth anything more than a guy hired a few months earlier from another airline. The bottom is the bottom, no matter how they want to spin it. Welcome to the airline business boys!
These past few months have been so uplifting to watch. The west's story is truly one of David and Goliath and it is so much fun to be watching the beast going down.
Welcome to the airlines!

Now that makes sense. 20 years at the bottom is worth nothing. So, 20 at the top or middle worth more ? BTW, how is that PHL Int bid going for you ? Your ALPA job is gone, join USAPA and do some good from the inside.

Eastus, NYC, barrister, megasnoop and al. got it so right.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Lucky you.

Although I prefer not to have 25 hr layovers because they are often the wrong 25 hrs HDT.

How many of these destinations were added post merger?

Oh, and do not forget soon you get to go to Hawaii also, perhaps a nice diversion from continental Europe. especially in winter.

Most merger? Not really sure. The latest ones are Oslo, Stockholm, Athens, TelAviv, and Birmingham (actually a really good layover city) in Europe. Soon to add Rio and Honolulu into the mix. Maybe Sao Paulo. I don't think we will ever see Peking, as I doubt PHX will ever see Tokyo. Unless international travel yields increase exponentially, PHX won't see any European destinations as it takes two airframes to service each city.

 

[flypg]

Oh...all these months I thought it was "Catpiss." The controllers don't even seem to notice.

I said catfish the other day out of MIA. They never missed a beat. Then I spelled it, quiet, then laughter on the frequency.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Your ALPA job is gone, join USAPA and do some good from the inside.

That's already been done here, or at least USAPA germane fees.

 

[Barrister]

Hasn't produced anything positive?

How about keeping the east pilots' attrition for the east pilots intact? That's very positive, at least from my non-official perspective. Worth every penny of dues.

USAPA found evidence of scope and minimum hour violations by the company against the west pilots, and will likely prevail. USAPA might have "not noticed" these violations of your contract, but they really are the union for the west pilots.

USAPA soundly smacked the company's knuckles over the "fuel school" issue. Not only have they backed away from their novel policy, even some of the pilots originally scheduled for the "procedure" were told not to bother showing up.

USAPA has been very effective in my opinion. It's a great improvement over ALPA, but that really doesn't say a whole lot as ALPA was frigging awful.

Retirements for the East startup again in 2 years maybe 2 1/2, need some more asessments for litigation appeals to capture 600-800 retirements, maybe a 1000, checks in the mail brother. And more if need be.

 

[Barrister]

Why do you fail to realize, seniority is everything to a pilot? Numerous West advocates only try to ask how much the East pilots have lost in near term finances, not how much they will loose over the remainder of their careers. The bottom of the East list will never voluntarily throw their careers out the window, regardless of the paltry gains.

The West battle cry is "Binding Arbitation", but whose process was that? ALPA is on record as saying their plan from the beginning was to have some of the "Minor" players go out of business to benefit themselves (IE United/Delta/Northwest). How could any process based on the demise of another carrier, be beneficial to the class in general? We all know ALPA allowed the companies to cry 'Force Majeur' after 9/11 and subjugate at least 1/3 of most major mainline jobs to regionals(just curious, how many West jobs were transfered). Dues were dues and we all know that's the only thing they care about. Why have the previous ALPA leaders been able to leave ALPA, and obtain high paying positions at Airbus, Boeing, or their own independent contracting firms (supported by every major carrier), while the standards of this industry have continued to eroded since deregulation? Why is it the only succesful stands against management have come from independent unions? ALPA supporters will say APA was fined and had to pay a large fine, but how much did they actually pay for their job actions? Didn't they achieve their basic goals and have the fines waived as part of the settlement? Didin't SWAPA recently vote down a lucrative contract to protect their scope clause?

anything they'd like, but we shouldn't let them manipulate our profession. USAPA is the best hope for the East pilot group to try and bring at least a modicum of hope back to our carreers. You can continue to say we missed the opportunity for an industry leading contract because of USAPA and the East pilots, but can you actually defend that position with any imperical data? Please don't say the Kirby proposal, first of all, it was only a proposal, and wasn't anything near industry leading.

How about the West take a new look, at a DOH list with fences and restrictions, and see how much it really harms anyone. In the last Crew News even Douggie said attitudes would have to chanege before he thought there'd be a CBA from the pilots. How about we be the ones to start and drive the rober barons from the field.

The ONLY thing the West has with NIC is the East attrition. No retirements, and no growth for the West in the forseeable future. NIC put 80 YOUNG (did not say inexperienced) AWA pilots senior to our bottom 330 reserve Capt. My friends you don't think the senior guys are paying attention to this!!!! Go out into the desert meditate and realize you have a list that will never be used!!

 

[cleardirect]

As previously discussed, USAPA has refrained, and will continue to refrain, from engaging in what amounts to Internet trash talk. Our adversaries in the Addington litigation seek to spin every legal skirmish in hopes of diminishing pilot morale behind the fight to honor the fundamental concept of seniority.

Some USAPA members have expressed their concern that our adversaries are winning the ‘communications war’ because they are better at Internet trash talk. The latest strategy appears to be to sap our members’ morale by suggesting that USAPA and its legal team are incapable of winning.

From the usapa updates. Yet when the first and only unsigned piece of internet trash pops up. Usapa is right there to publish it. If I remember right was it not usapa that said “watch what they do not what they say� Well I watched. They said they would not engage, but what did they do? They engaged.

In addition they dishonestly and purposely leave off the last part that is critical of Seham.

… This decision presents a restraint on the ability of unions to negotiate. And the judge’s holding that plaintiffs may sue over bargaining proposals, not actual agreements, presents the danger that collective bargaining, … will be bogged down in lawsuits ginned up by plaintiff’s lawyers …â€

If you notice the three dots after lawyers. That means there is more that usapa left out. Why would they do that? At least mega snoop was honest enough to post the entire blog. Not just the parts that usapa likes.

This is what comes after lawyers…

who, as the court described the plaintiffs’ lawyers here, misstate law and facts.

The decision reads like this case became a hobby for the judge. An explanation for this seemingly inexplicable award comes from the judge’s harsh criticism of USAPA’s attorneys, the law firm of Seham, Seham, Meltz & Peterson:

USAPA has at various stages misstated law, facts,
and procedural history, with frequent recourse to the
“contradiction or confusion . . . produced by a medley
of judicial phrases severed from their environment.â€

As Brendan Sullivan once said, a lawyer is “not a potted plant.†Skillful advocacy is essential to successful litigation. Poor lawyering, much less lawyering that misstates “law, facts and procedural history†(what’s left to misstate?), hurts clients. That certainly seems to be the case here.

usapa can complain. But it is not their adversaries that are suggesting Seham can't win. It is the blog that usapa uses to bolster their position. But usapa hapened to leave that part out. Since it did not comply with their version of reality.

When are you guys going to get tired of usapa not being honest with you? You put up with what you say ALPA lied to you for years, why allow the next leaders to continue doing the same thing? Maybe you just like it. Maybe you don't want to hear the reality of the situation. Maybe you like being disappointed over and over as promises are broken.

 

[Megasnoop]

The AFL-CIO. Would that be the parent union of ALPA? Do you think that the parent is going to go against the union policy that usapa is trying to get out of? Good luck with that.

Again, the enemy of my enemy will (at least temporary) be my friend. Any court attack on a union’s right to unrestricted collective bargaining is going to get a lot of union interest. No matter what the politics, letting a district court set precedence on what a union can negotiate is going to bring out strange bedfellows. After a contract is in place? That’s the time for real (or imagined) DFR.

Why would the payments go away? Is usapa so weak that they would give it away in the contract? Anyone with half a brain would bring that provision with them to the next contract. It has been accounted for already. So it would be no cost. The snap back! The Kirby is a pay raise for you.

I assume you mean why would $70M and the LOA84 pay reinstatement go away. Answer: that was the way the Kirby offer was written. Accepting Kirby was a short-term pay increase (2007-2009), but a long-term cut (2010- ), no $70M and no LOA84 pay reinstatement.

Why do you fail to realize, seniority is everything to a pilot? Numerous West advocates only try to ask how much the East pilots have lost in near term finances, not how much they will lose over the remainder of their careers. The bottom of the East list will never voluntarily throw their careers out the window, regardless of the paltry gains.

Neither will the East middle, spike. The top I fly with are supporting us through the appeal, LOA93/84 and the $70M. A year from now, I can understand the top re-evaluating their positions. One thing we learned over the years is patience. Even our most senior have another year of patience in them. We’ve all gotten a 5-year gift of working longer. The west seems all about me, me, me, now, now, now. And their only hope is this campaign attempting to demoralize with ridicule and misrepresentations and FUD.

At what cost? Nothing, really. As I said, we are operating under the contractual agreement we signed and we are getting exactly what we all anticipated. Cost us nothing so far. If you want to play woulda, coulda, shoulda, go right ahead. Anything you come up with is pure speculation on your part. Gained? ALPA off the property. (Dues are still the same, so we haven't lost anything there, either.)

Your right driver. With the Kirby pay cut on the table (if it still is), it’s an overall East pay cut.

LOA93 pay: lousy. Pay bonus: $70M. Having ALPA off the property: PRICELESS !

What Leading Authority is on your side again....OH that's right. Lee Seham and his $100,000 doller per MONTH fees.

We pay Seham $100K/month because:
1. West pilots clogged our phones and attacked our union
2. Refused to pay dues/fees
3. Sued us for DFR before we even had a DOH (with restrictions) contract in place
Without your actions, we wouldn’t be paying him even $20K/month.

Maybe you will be sold off to Republic!!!!

Or get a SWA staple-job.

Not to mention 100% Dead Head pay, the ability to drop to 40 hours, swap trips 3 hours before check in, full pay for ANY cancellation, minimum rest rules, duty rigs, trip rigs and occasionally a pretty tasty crew meal for the long haul...

You lucky guys. “drop to 40 hours?†Really? If the company allowed you to do that do you think there would be that many West furloughs? Give us a break. Even with the East furloughs, the company isn’t dropping block averages enough to bring anyone back.

 

[HPDriver]

I said catfish the other day out of MIA. They never missed a beat. Then I spelled it, quiet, then laughter on the frequency.

Uh ya, real funny.

No wonder you guys fly under LOA93.