US Pilots Labor Discussion-8/12 to 8/19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS
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oldiebutgoody
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Yup. You missed some biggies. But I'll just let you stew on it. You seem to need more to do with your time anyway.
You thought wrong. Phoenix, A320 Captain line holder . Get 4 weeks + vacation weekends off and some pretty choice schedules if you don't mind working noon to 8 with 14 to 16 hr layovers. Catch is you have to like places like SAN SFO etc....
They already have, on every front. They lost the most when they sold their honor for an illegitimate cause, seeking gains at their peers expense.
nycbusdriver
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Ah yes, I remember those wonderful layover cities.
Now I have to make do with Rome, Athens, London, Dublin, Amsterdam, Paris, Madrid, Barcelona, Lisbon, Stockholm. But you have to like 25 to 50 hour layovers for those.
It's rough.
It is not just evidence but jury instructions as well....the Judge uses the term "bad faith" several times but would not give the "bad faith" instruction to the jury. The 9th will be looking close....they will smell bias coming out of this case.....we shall see.
nycbusdriver
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Yes, the east has lost on every front. The Nicolau award has been in full force since shortly after it was issued. Is that the reality in your world? Interesting.
In my world, the Nicolau list has been held at bay for over two years. Maybe not a win, but so far a draw, with no end in sight.
You get the piece of paper that says Nicolau is the official list, we get to vote down contracts forever (or at least until the effects of Nicolau are moot.)
The east hasn't lost anything so far that we didn't expect to endure anyway. My pay is exactly where I thought it would be. My seniority is still the same. That is pretty much the case for all the east pilots. So, what have we lost so far? Nothing, really. Paper losses? Maybe...can't tell just yet.
nycbusdriver
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duplicate post
AZ Bus Cap'n
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I have to agree with nycbusdriver. The East pilots can vote down every contract from now to eternity and Judge Wake will not so much as raise an eyebrow. The million dollar question is, will they? What will they vote in the privacy of their homes after having a long discussion with their wives over the pay raise? Only a vote will tell, no amount of web-board speculating.
If the East continues to vote down the contract, then any complaints about being the lowest paid, under the worst working conditions, etc. will have to cease, as now a conscious decision will have been been made to work under those conditions to avoid Nicolau. Legally, I may add!
However, in court it was shown that the East MEC was not willing to take this risk during the JNC process (letting pilots vote on Kirby +7%, thus cementing Nicolau) and chose instead to walk away from the table. The East pilots may have voted it down, who knows. However, the risk of them voting for it was too great, so the EastMEC didn't even give the pilots the chance to vote.
Megasnoop
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[quote name='boeingplt' post='702276' date='Aug 14 2009, 07:05 AM']It could go back to Wake or it could be overturned altogether - "Wake got it wrong" or "Wake never should have heard it because it wasn't ripe, go back to court when it is ripe and start over"
What happens if the 9th agrees with USAPA? Does the west go to the Supreme Court? I suspect that they would try. They believe they are right, this is incredibly important to them and they will fight until there are no options left.[/quote]
That's Plan B, Boeing. They don't have one yet. It's all cactus blossoms out there. Also they don't have the money to pay for this appeal, much less the Supreme Court. But the Ninth could rule as "a matter of law," which essentially isn't appealable, except on a writ of certiori. Like how many of those does the USSC issue each decade? AOL's got some real heartburn now. The Ninth could stay the injunction, with instructions. That's like hints to the judge. Or they could just wait until December or later to rule. Meanwhile, the amicus briefs will start piling up. In this case "the enemy of my enemy may be my friend." Don't be surprised to see certain AFL-CIO and other large unions support the USAPA appeal.
I think the posters who come and go from the West is testament to that. We got a West Newbie today. Wonder who he was last week. Fortunate there's been some heavy cleaning of the nastiest.
[quote name='exB717Flyer' post='702279' date='Aug 14 2009, 07:48 AM']Yes, he accepted recall to AA. He was a TWA captain before the merger so he returned to a higher pay scale.[/quote]
He returned to a higher pay scale regardless of what his position before he got stapled to the bottom AMR list. And as I remember, he gets longevity pay back to his TWA date, 1989 or so? BTW, when are you going back to AMR? When's your recall?
When Roland "disobeyed," he was up against ALPA's political machine in full pressure mode, which was more interested in getting APA to join than protecting TWA pilots. That makes for a full chapter in "Flying the Line, III," I'm sure. The list of characters in that Court document was like a "Who's-Who" in ALPA deal-making, Woerth, Babbitt (even though he was long gone), Jalmer Johnson, Clay Warner, Jonathan Cohen, Bill Roberts, Bob Christie, Jerry Mugerditchian, Marta Wagner, Seth Rosen, Richard Seltzer of Cohen, Weiss and Simon. You guys even deposed an ALPA communications guy named Ron Rindfleisch. That took some digging to figure out who he was. All of their depositions were vintage ALPA. Like they were all on vacation that year. Memories fade, but emails don't.
Back to your legal document, On August 2, 2002, less than a year after having vetoed a TWA-MEC legal strategy, deemed critical by the MEC’s legal counsel, because he would not permit the (TWA) MEC to sue APA, Woerth described ALPA’s Independence-Plus policy in the following terms:
“Believe me, Duane Woerth doesn’t tell [company-specific pilot groups] what to do. I cn guarantee it. It hasn’t happened. They tell Duane Woerth what to do, as it should be. They are the power center. They are the decision makers. Both for the whole organization through the Board of Directors and, certainly, at their company, they have total, complete, absolute discretion to do what’ sin their best interests. My job is to make sure all the resources are available so they can exercise their role. Nobody is going to tell them what to do. I certainly don’t. You will have the same independence you have now, but you will have access to ALPA resources.†(21)
Bye Golly!
At least that's how your lawsuit called it. But why no comment on my simple Q, if ALPA was so nasty to you, why do you want USAPA gone and them back? I'll tell you, the stapling you got was a lot worse than the DOL with restrictions USAPA proposed.
[quote name='AZ Bus Cap'n' post='702354' date='Aug 14 2009, 01:02 PM']What will they vote in the privacy of their homes after having a long discussion with their wives over the pay raise? Only a vote will tell, no amount of web-board speculating.[/quote]
Newbie makes the assumption Addington isn't reversed on appeal. Good luck on that! But since you are "new," some acquaintance with what we have ahead of us besides appeal. We've got 2 $35M payments and the LOA93/84 pay reinstatement. With the Kirby, both those go away. With $70M and LOA84, a new contract with or without NIC becomes a pay cut and irrelevant.
Kirby pay cut? LOA93/84 pay rates? In the privacy of my farm, it's a no-brainer.
What happens if the 9th agrees with USAPA? Does the west go to the Supreme Court? I suspect that they would try. They believe they are right, this is incredibly important to them and they will fight until there are no options left.[/quote]
That's Plan B, Boeing. They don't have one yet. It's all cactus blossoms out there. Also they don't have the money to pay for this appeal, much less the Supreme Court. But the Ninth could rule as "a matter of law," which essentially isn't appealable, except on a writ of certiori. Like how many of those does the USSC issue each decade? AOL's got some real heartburn now. The Ninth could stay the injunction, with instructions. That's like hints to the judge. Or they could just wait until December or later to rule. Meanwhile, the amicus briefs will start piling up. In this case "the enemy of my enemy may be my friend." Don't be surprised to see certain AFL-CIO and other large unions support the USAPA appeal.
I think the posters who come and go from the West is testament to that. We got a West Newbie today. Wonder who he was last week. Fortunate there's been some heavy cleaning of the nastiest.
[quote name='exB717Flyer' post='702279' date='Aug 14 2009, 07:48 AM']Yes, he accepted recall to AA. He was a TWA captain before the merger so he returned to a higher pay scale.[/quote]
He returned to a higher pay scale regardless of what his position before he got stapled to the bottom AMR list. And as I remember, he gets longevity pay back to his TWA date, 1989 or so? BTW, when are you going back to AMR? When's your recall?
When Roland "disobeyed," he was up against ALPA's political machine in full pressure mode, which was more interested in getting APA to join than protecting TWA pilots. That makes for a full chapter in "Flying the Line, III," I'm sure. The list of characters in that Court document was like a "Who's-Who" in ALPA deal-making, Woerth, Babbitt (even though he was long gone), Jalmer Johnson, Clay Warner, Jonathan Cohen, Bill Roberts, Bob Christie, Jerry Mugerditchian, Marta Wagner, Seth Rosen, Richard Seltzer of Cohen, Weiss and Simon. You guys even deposed an ALPA communications guy named Ron Rindfleisch. That took some digging to figure out who he was. All of their depositions were vintage ALPA. Like they were all on vacation that year. Memories fade, but emails don't.
Back to your legal document, On August 2, 2002, less than a year after having vetoed a TWA-MEC legal strategy, deemed critical by the MEC’s legal counsel, because he would not permit the (TWA) MEC to sue APA, Woerth described ALPA’s Independence-Plus policy in the following terms:
“Believe me, Duane Woerth doesn’t tell [company-specific pilot groups] what to do. I cn guarantee it. It hasn’t happened. They tell Duane Woerth what to do, as it should be. They are the power center. They are the decision makers. Both for the whole organization through the Board of Directors and, certainly, at their company, they have total, complete, absolute discretion to do what’ sin their best interests. My job is to make sure all the resources are available so they can exercise their role. Nobody is going to tell them what to do. I certainly don’t. You will have the same independence you have now, but you will have access to ALPA resources.†(21)
Bye Golly!
At least that's how your lawsuit called it. But why no comment on my simple Q, if ALPA was so nasty to you, why do you want USAPA gone and them back? I'll tell you, the stapling you got was a lot worse than the DOL with restrictions USAPA proposed.
[quote name='AZ Bus Cap'n' post='702354' date='Aug 14 2009, 01:02 PM']What will they vote in the privacy of their homes after having a long discussion with their wives over the pay raise? Only a vote will tell, no amount of web-board speculating.[/quote]
Newbie makes the assumption Addington isn't reversed on appeal. Good luck on that! But since you are "new," some acquaintance with what we have ahead of us besides appeal. We've got 2 $35M payments and the LOA93/84 pay reinstatement. With the Kirby, both those go away. With $70M and LOA84, a new contract with or without NIC becomes a pay cut and irrelevant.
Kirby pay cut? LOA93/84 pay rates? In the privacy of my farm, it's a no-brainer.
Metroyet
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No need for plan "B". The West legal team has been mopping the floor with USAPA from the word GO. Why? Because the LAW is solidly in the West's corner. There's plenty of cash to keep usapa paralyzed. In fact, I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary....ever. I know your desperation is willing to grasp at anything to make your horrible career, well, "better" but The West running out of cash is not going to be your saviour...You'll just have to keep fabricating new delusional ways out of this mess you created. I have every confidence you'll think of something to hang your hat, (and hopes) on.
BTW, the appeal is already paid for. Do you really see the Supreme Court ever wasting their time to reiterate the fact that final and binding arbitration is exactly what is says?
You must be the most optimistic person ever. I mean if it were me, and I had the same unmatched losing record as you guys do, I'd throw in the towel. Very impressive trait.
Lee must be a hell of a motivational speaker. Perhaps that can be his new career as I'm quite certain, after this MEGA loss, and his well documented lies, deceit, and dereliction of duty, he will find himself UNHIREABLE by anyone.
des nudo
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Metroyet, that was beautiful. So compelling. So instructional. I bet if you keep posting literary jewels like this the east will join you in droves...thereby handing you their careers which you so richly deserve.
Bravo, please continue.
Bravo, please continue.
Metroyet
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1. Is any of what I said not factual?
2. I wouldn't wish your careers on my worst enemy...however, because none of your misfortunes over the years were the fault of ANY west pilots, and given the fact that USAPA was formed for the sole purpose to disenfranchise the West, I'd say it's your side attempting to help themselves to careers that are not their own. I'd say that, so does an arbitrator, two neutrals, A Federal Judge, a Jury of 9, and last but not least...The Company as well.
What Leading Authority is on your side again....OH that's right. Lee Seham and his $100,000 doller per MONTH fees.
3. I could care less what the other East pilots do. Just so long as they comply with the Law, Court Orders, and the Permanent Injunction. Isn't that was all good MIGS want union brother?
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