US Pilot Labor Thread 10/27-11/2

[fodase]

From the empire lawsuit:


"56. Prior to and during the election USAPA ran on the issue that date of hire was the only way to determine the new seniority list. And if elected the new bargaining agent, USAPA would ignore the ALPA Nicolau list of American West Airlines and USAirways and present to USAirways management a new list based on date of hire. "

Well let's see, running on a platform like this is illegal in this country. This lawsuit might not go anywhere but it is a great help to the america west pilots, and it has been forwarded to the judge.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Never happen. here's why. Their seniority at USair/USAirways has been codified by several contracts over the years.

From the current East contract:

"The Pilot's System Seniority List, as established by the Award of Arbitrator S. Kagel dated October 31, 1988, shall constitute the official Pilots' System Seniority List."

Hmmmm...Where's the part codifying the Shuttle pilot's seniority? Seems to be missing...

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

While none of this affects me, I see some BIG problems for USAPA here. They can't be right on bothsides of this issue. I've read USAPA'S constitution and I've read what USAPA'S lawyer has testified to concerning DOH and timelines. HE said, “There’s are no timelineâ€￾ the union, has full control over that matter through the collective bargaining agreement. He’s quoted in the Shuttle/Empire lawsuits. What I find troubling is why would the east pilots who voted in a DOH union, not WANT everyone on their list to be DOH. From the outside it seems self serving. I believe that the Shuttle/Empire lawsuit was also filed in North Carolina, the most anti union state in the country. The entire situation for all of you guys has been a disaster and looking worse day by day. Never happens, happens all the time. Waste of time, time will tell.

Personally, I think it would be great to set such a precedent. It's just impractical. These issues were handled decades ago. How can USAPA be expected to correct ALL the injustices of the past CBA? The HUGE difference in this case from the AWA/LCC case is that the AWA/LCC contract has never existed, and, it can be argued, never would have under ALPA's requirements that both sides ratify it.

I'll bet this doesn't even make it to court. I'll bet there's even some kind of precedent already limiting the new CBA's responsibilities in such matters.

 

[BoeingBoy]

and, it can be argued, never would have under ALPA's requirements that both sides ratify it.

A requirement that lives on courtesy of the transition agreement...

Jim

 

[Tiger 1050]

Personally, I think it would be great to set such a precedent. It's just impractical.

How, exactly, is it "impractical?" Please explain.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

A requirement that lives on courtesy of the transition agreement...

Jim

Betcha it doesn't! There's only one group now, since They won't join "the association".

The Trump seniority is LOA 75.

 

[des nudo]

A requirement that lives on courtesy of the transition agreement...

Jim

Obviously, what YOU think doesn't mean a thing to this group. hate to be blunt, but , hey..you're a retired "know it all" (at least thats what you tell your wife..)

Sucks to be out of the game..?

Further, the lawsuit they propose has no legs.

We'll re-visit this next week.

 

[cleardirect]

For all of you east legal eagles and prognosticators.

When you have no legal or moral core you can get caught between a rock and a hard place. Maybe you all should get yourself educated on what your high priced lawyer is arguing in court. Instead of eagerly lapping up the USAPA propaganda. Try reading the actual documents that are being filed on your behalf. This is the first section of the document #47 filed in the AOL law suit. Lee Seham also argued this same thing in open court in his closing arguments. I was there I heard him say it. Check the transcripts when they are released.

If anyone doubts me go to the pacer court system and look it up yourself. Better yet demand the documents from your union. After all you are paying for them they belong to you.

MEMORANDUM OF POINTS AND
AUTHORITIES IN REPLY TO
PLAINTIFFS’ RESPONSE IN
OPPOSITION TO THE US AIRLINE
PILOTS ASSOCIATION’S MOTION
TO DISMISS



I. SUMMARY
In order to avoid dismissal of its action on jurisdictional grounds, the Plaintiffs must both satisfactorily allege a DFR violation related to the alleged contractual violations and, in addition, establish that submitting their contractual dispute to a System Board is excused by the narrowly interpreted futility doctrine. Plaintiffs’ DFR claim is based on the unsustainable theory that USAPA has a legal obligation to conform to the internal seniority integration policies of a decertified predecessor union. The law does not support such a thesis. Federal case law is clear that seniority is not permanent even after it has been implemented – let alone where, as here, a decertified predecessor union declined to pursue implementation of its own proposal.1 USAPA’s policy goal – to honor the concept of date-of-hire seniority – has been deemed a core value of the labor movement and an equitable basis for seniority integration.

Seham is going to have a hard time arguing the other side of this argument when the plantiffs will use his own words and case sites against him and USAPA.

 

[Megasnoop]

From the current East contract:

"The Pilot's System Seniority List, as established by the Award of Arbitrator S. Kagel dated October 31, 1988, shall constitute the official Pilots' System Seniority List."

Hmmmm...Where's the part codifying the Shuttle pilot's seniority? Seems to be missing...

Jim

Oh come on, Jim. The Shuttle pilot's seniority was codified by another Nicolau arbitration, back in 1998, followed by 4 contracts. Empire codified by Kagel in 1988. This is old, stale news. This is a nuisance lawsuit. I cant believe any of the less than 20 former EAL pilots on the Shuttle are stupid enough to put a cent into this. But then, Ive flown with some of them, so maybe there is one still fighting a 10-year-old lost battle. More Empire pilots still on the list. They didnt get a real good deal in that seniority integration, but with 4 contracts and the Kagel Award between them and now, they dont stand a chance. But that wont stop the west cowboys from throwing any kind of FUD into the mix, that any of this will spell doom and gloom for USAPA. Theyre going to keep looking for a hail-mary that wont happen. But if by some miracle the west DID get their precious NIC, then a reversal of Empire and/or Shuttle would actually hurt their top 25% or so.

BTW, still not sure why you care, being retired. Are you in that Tetlow lawsuit? Yah, I flew with him on one of his last flights. snuper

 

[des nudo]

Hey des! Catch-up yet? I can't seem to keep pace with USAPA. First it's strict DOH. But then it's "DOH" with a few exceptions (read: Empire/Trump Shuttle). Of course we learned later that USAPA says DOH for the west with "Conditions and Restrictions." Ya know where the east gets all of the growth out east and half of the growth out west. I think USAPA should call it the "Whatever Benefits Me Most" seniority list. Let me know when USAPA nails it down... I'd be interested to see how it has morphed between now and then.

Uh...slick, YOURE FURLOUGHED.

Go get a job.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Betcha it doesn't! There's only one group now, since They won't join "the association".

Heck, even USAPA speaks of East and West pilots. All it takes is one USAPA member from the West - if they vote against a combined contract it doesn't pass on the West side.

The Trump seniority is LOA 75.

Which seems to have disappeared into limbo...not in the last printed contract (which was negotiated prior to the Shuttle integration though I don't recall when the arbitration was complete) and not available separately - the "post-printed contract" LOA's start at #84). At any rate, if it is still valid it definitely isn't "codified by several contracts" as our newcomer claims.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Oh come on, Jim. The Shuttle pilot's seniority was codified by another Nicolau arbitration, back in 1998, followed by 4 contracts.

Ya just gotta love people who make up "facts" to support their argument....

The last contract was ratified in early 1998. Since then there have only been LOA's modifying that contract. Where you come up with "followed by 4 contracts" is a mystery.

As for the Empire deal, that was "codified" by using the US/PI combined list as contained in the quote from the current contract. On the other hand, until the last ex-Empire pilot retires there'll still be a C&R giving them some protection (unless USAPA drops that from a combined contract.)

Are you in that Tetlow lawsuit? Yah, I flew with him on one of his last flights. snuper

Don't even know who that is or why he's significant.

Jim

ps added: The more I think about it the more familiar the name "Tetlow" sounds. I still can't put it into any context though, much less a lawsuit.

 

[N924PS]

I would expect this of someone who has been accused of the childish actions mentioned in the law suit. These america west pilots were the bottom of the barrel hires, you could only expect the bottom of the barrel conduct.

Once again your arrogance is showing.

To say that America West pilots were bottom of the barrel hires is beyond belief.

Do you even know any West pilots personally? Well I do, and I can assure you the are every bit as qualified and professional, and yes, even as experienced as the career East F/O's, of which I'm certain you are.

Having said that, I do believe it is "bottom of the barrel" conduct to deny a jumpseat. Although I understand their have been a few East "loose cannons" participating in the jumpseat denial program, even before the lawsuits started.

Unfortunately, their will be no quick resolution to this issue, so expect it to drag on in the courts for years to come. It's quite likely that DL/NW merger, including a merged seniority list, will be completed long before the USAirways merger catastrophe is finally put to rest.

 

[EastUS]

I'll bet this guy is eastus just pretending to be someone else. Sounds like him playing dumb.

Nope. I don't know this individual..BUT..given that you're so fond of sniping...only when you assume it to be "safe"..and are, in all apparent ways..merely a spineless, smarmy little alpoid "politician"..I can see where you would come up with such a notion..or any fantasized notion that ever serves your entirely self-obsessed BS Sorry..but Ive not been bothering with the boards of late at all..given that I'm far past tired of the sorry ilk of such as yourself..and I'm not much any more interested with indulging ANY aspects of the standard westie "It's ALL about MEEE!!" horsecrap in any case...Over time? = A man simply gets tired of attempting wasted conversation with spineless, narcicisstic, brain-dead, fully delusional....utter scum....

 

[nostradamus]

Once again your arrogance is showing.

Do you even know any West pilots personally? Well I do, and I can assure you the are every bit as qualified and professional, and yes, even as experienced as the career East F/O's, of which I'm certain you are.

924ps, you are a former original psa pilot, who now is a pilot for Us Airways after they purchased your airline. You are flying the Airbus 330 and received date of hire at Us Airways while your peers at Air Cal were acquired by American Airlines, then stapled to the bottom. Date of hire is fine when it benifits your selfish, ample gluteus maximus, but not necessary with other mergers because you feel you are better than the rest.

One of your pilots, Armand Janzen, became the head of alpa at Us Airways, shortly after Us Airways bought psa. He proceeded to do nothing but get the former psa airline pilots on the Us Airways retirement pilot plan, cash out and leave for alpa national, before they gave the plan away. He was a crook, alpa style.

I am aware you have an unnatural attraction to some america west pilots. You even dedicated a part of your web site to them.

924ps web site