US Pilot Labor Thread 10/27-11/2

[oldiebutgoody]

Heck, even USAPA speaks of East and West pilots. All it takes is one USAPA member from the West - if they vote against a combined contract it doesn't pass on the West side.


Which seems to have disappeared into limbo...not in the last printed contract (which was negotiated prior to the Shuttle integration though I don't recall when the arbitration was complete) and not available separately - the "post-printed contract" LOA's start at #84). At any rate, if it is still valid it definitely isn't "codified by several contracts" as our newcomer claims.

Jim

You're wrong again on both counts!

I just went through the T/A, and there is NOTHING about any sort of membership vote. I guess that was something that ALPA reassured us would be the case, but it wasn't in print (unless I just can't find it). We all know what that meant from ALPA. It meant it would NEVER happen!. It is in the USAPA C&BL that membership ratrification is required. There is NOTHING about each side getting separate votes that I see.

LOA #75 is on the USAPA website, included in the contract. Yes, the latest edition.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Which seems to have disappeared into limbo...

It's right there on the USAPA website in the .pdf contract file.

So, if these new lawsuits are successful (or MDA as well ) then the AAA seniority list would be reordered which invalidates Nic since he used faulty seniority lists?

 

[fodase]

It's right there on the USAPA website in the .pdf contract file.

So, if these new lawsuits are successful (or MDA as well ) then the AAA seniority list would be reordered which invalidates Nic since he used faulty seniority lists?

Yeah, thats it.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Considering the above tell me how will you feel as pilots if you manage to bring about the demise of US Airways with this massive penis measuring contest?

At least I'd have a trophy, which is WAAAY more than a lot of the Eastern guys got!

 

[Tiger 1050]

Uh...slick, YOURE FURLOUGHED.

Go get a job.

Close. But not furloughed yet. I am hoping that may change. Although any sane individual must wonder why I would hope for such a thing...

BTW Don't be bitter towards me. I did not show up on this board claiming ignorance and then spill the beans about my illustrious 20 years at US. Obviously you are having a hard time letting go. Funny isn't it? You like to tear into Jim because he's retired yet you do not even work in this country. When you have a dog in this fight maybe your commentary will be worth more than a good wipe of the backside... Mate.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Can anybody say "EASTERN AIRLINES"

This whole thing is a classic example of Testosterone Poisoning in full bloom!

Recessions, 9/11, erratic fuel costs and the like have failed to kill US Airways.

Considering the above tell me how will you feel as pilots if you manage to bring about the demise of US Airways with this massive penis measuring contest?

Frankly I believe it would be good for the industry as a whole. This place is a cancer.

 

[N924PS]

924ps, you are a former original psa pilot, who now is a pilot for Us Airways after they purchased your airline. You are flying the Airbus 330 and received date of hire at Us Airways while your peers at Air Cal were acquired by American Airlines, then stapled to the bottom. Date of hire is fine when it benifits your selfish, ample gluteus maximus, but not necessary with other mergers because you feel you are better than the rest.

Ahhh....if only American had purchased PSA!

I think the AirCal guys made out just fine over at AA in terms of pay and their career expectations were exceeded. Many retired as B777 Captains, with full pensions.

Armen Janzen was voted in as MEC Chairman. All of the contractual provisions that were changed on his watch were voted in by a majority of the USAir pilots. Nothing that happened was a unilateral decision.

As I have said before, the tyranny of the majority is only a good thing when it suits your position.

FYI- The Webmaster for the PSA History page is an original America West fleet service employee who just happened to like PSA and took the time to host a great web site. All former PSA'ers are most appreciative of his efforts. Ironic, isn't it that Southwest Airlines is so successful using the basic PSA business model. Low Fares-High Frequency-Happy Employees. What a concept.

And speaking of unnatural attractions for fellow pilots, thanks for checking out my ample gluteous maximus. I'm so flattered.

 

[Captsummeroff]

Personally, I think it would be great to set such a precedent. It's just impractical. These issues were handled decades ago. How can USAPA be expected to correct ALL the injustices of the past CBA? The HUGE difference in this case from the AWA/LCC case is that the AWA/LCC contract has never existed, and, it can be argued, never would have under ALPA's requirements that both sides ratify it.

I'll bet this doesn't even make it to court. I'll bet there's even some kind of precedent already limiting the new CBA's responsibilities in such matters.

I would have agreed with you had the lawsuit been filed against ALPA. ALPA is no longer a player in this act. I spent sometime reading over the lawsuit last night. USAPA allegedly promised as part of their campaign to make Empire/Shuttle pilots whole on seniority. USAPA'S constitution is founded on DOH. To complicate matters the USAPA BPR in closed session passed a resolution that address the issue and unanimously votes not to change the east list. USAPA seems to have opened a door and that might present a problem. If the case doesn’t make it to court then it would seem the Empire- Shuttle pilots aren’t going to be out a lot of money. If is accepted by the courts, then it’s game on and a bad sign for USAPA and the BPR. Speaking about the cost, looking at it from the other side. The lawsuit seeks to hold each member of the BPR and negotiating committee personally libel for each of the 12 counts. The plaintiffs are seeking a minimum of $10,000 per pilot for each count or $120,000.00 per plaintiff. I don’t know how many Empire-Shuttle pilots there are, lets just say 200 that’s $24m divided by 22 defendants comes out to a whooping $1m per defendant. The reason I mention this is North Carolina has some interesting laws concerning labor. Members of an unincorporated union cannot be held liable for the union’s action. If USAPA were to lose they may not be able to pass along the cost of the judgment along to it’s members. Even if USAPA can, that would cost each USAPA member around $10000.00. I understand appeals and how they work, in the interim liens are levied bad things happen. From the outside with no axe to grind with the east or west, I just don’t understand why USAPA would put their members in this position. A lot of risk for a principle they are founded on.

 

[BoeingBoy]

LOA #75 is on the USAPA website, included in the contract. Yes, the latest edition.

It's right there on the USAPA website in the .pdf contract file.

The price paid for not having access to the USAPA website - I was going by the printed copy of the last contract.

On the other hand, if I batted 500 I'd be a star in the major leagues...

The separate vote is implied by Section II ( A ) of the transition agreement just as the furlough of all newhires before those senior to them is implied by Section II ( B )( 7 ).

Jim

 

[fodase]

It is illegal to promise to help out a larger group at the expense of a smaller group to get elected. If it is proven that the claims in the empire lawsuit, usapa as an organization will cease to exist and criminal charges are very likely. On a related note a usapa "witness" Perjured himself on the stand in phoenix, we will be pursuing this with the judge.

 

[nycbusdriver]

USAPA allegedly promised as part of their campaign to make Empire/Shuttle pilots whole on seniority.

This came up before and during the balloting process for the new CBA. USAPA made it clear that they would not reorder the functioning lists. USAPA never made any promises to the Empire or Shuttle pilots that they would recover their Empire or Eastern DOH. I defy anyone to show this on USAPA letterhead. When an ex-Empire pilot made a presentation to the USAPA BPR, they made it clear to him that they appreciated his input but would not be reordering the east list.

Can anybody say "EASTERN AIRLINES"

This whole thing is a classic example of Testosterone Poisoning in full bloom!

Recessions, 9/11, erratic fuel costs and the like have failed to kill US Airways.

Considering the above tell me how will you feel as pilots if you manage to bring about the demise of US Airways with this massive penis measuring contest?

The east pilots sacrificed, willingly or not, great amounts to keep this company alive. The only reason to do such a thing would be in hopes of having an employer with a strong balance sheet so that their futures might be brighter. The only thing they had left of those futures was their date-of-hire and the attrition that would make that DOH somewhat valuable. As a group, we are not going to stand by and let this final asset slip away without a fight. The company is perfectly capable of protecting itself while this plays itself out.

I find it ironic that someone who is the spearhead of the movement to discourage our high-yield customers from flying on USAirways because of the perceived deterioration of the perks they enjoy previously would now accuse the pilots of endangering the corporation.

Piney....glass house...stones....are you familiar with the concept?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

It is illegal to promise to help out a larger group at the expense of a smaller group to get elected. If it is proven that the claims in the empire lawsuit, usapa as an organization will cease to exist and criminal charges are very likely. On a related note a usapa "witness" Perjured himself on the stand in phoenix, we will be pursuing this with the judge.

Before or after he throws the whole thing out?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The separate vote is implied by Section II ( A ) of the transition agreement just as the furlough of all newhires before those senior to them is implied by Section II ( B )( 7 ).

Jim

I don't read that AT ALL. Maybe we're looking at different documents, but I don't see anything implying any sort of vote. I see what appears to be "boiler plate" language referring to section VI (A), which only lists requirements for combined operations, but NOTHING about any sort of vote or ratification.

On the other hand, the stuff about furloughing new hires first is specifically spelled out, just as USAPA has said that it is.

Sorry, but in my experience with the legal system, one can't just "imply" major issues like voting rights. That's the kind of garbage ALPA did all the time, then, after assurances, changed the rules.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

BTW, still not sure why you care, being retired. Are you in that Tetlow lawsuit? Yah, I flew with him on one of his last flights. snuper

I'm not sure why Jim cares either. B) He spends a tremendous amount of time on his computer. I can imagine what this forum would be like if he had access to USAPA's pdf files. :blink: h34r:
I have a vested interest in the success of USAir (ways) but I am not as interested to the extent that Jim is. He sure takes up a lot of cyberpaper. :huh:

 

[BoeingBoy]

First, furlough order of new hires (the third list) is not spelled out in the TA. However, because they are junior to those on the East & West lists, it's implied that they are furloughed first because that's what the underlying contracts specify - furlough in inverse order of seniority.

Section II (A) specifies that two separate pilot groups, each with their own contract, exist until Operational Pilot Integration occurs (Section VI (A), referenced in II ( A ), covers the Operational Pilot Integration).

Two groups, each with their own contract - when was the last time you got to vote on (or had the MEC ratify as your elected representative) the replacement of a contract that you don't work under? Voted on any Express contracts - separate pilot group with separate contract. Same thing here - East gets to decide if the new contract replaces the current East contract and West gets to decide if the new contract replaces the current West contract. Heck, USAPA (like ALPA) doesn't even let every member subject to a contract vote on it's replacement - apprentice and inactive members are prime examples. Why should you (or anyone else) get to vote on replacing a contract that you're (or they're) not even subject to.

Jim