US Pilot Labor Thread 10/27-11/2

[BoeingBoy]

I'm not sure why Jim cares either.

For the benefit of those "cats" who are being "killed by curiosity", I have two nephews that work in this industry so have some vested interest in the outcome of this experiment.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

First, furlough order of new hires (the third list) is not spelled out in the TA. However, because they are junior to those on the East & West lists, it's implied that they are furloughed first because that's what the underlying contracts specify - furlough in inverse order of seniority.

Section II (A) specifies that two separate pilot groups, each with their own contract, exist until Operational Pilot Integration occurs (Section VI (A), referenced in II ( A ), covers the Operational Pilot Integration).

Two groups, each with their own contract - when was the last time you got to vote on (or had the MEC ratify as your elected representative) the replacement of a contract that you don't work under? Voted on any Express contracts - separate pilot group with separate contract. Same thing here - East gets to decide if the new contract replaces the current East contract and West gets to decide if the new contract replaces the current West contract. Heck, USAPA (like ALPA) doesn't even let every member subject to a contract vote on it's replacement - apprentice and inactive members are prime examples. Why should you (or anyone else) get to vote on replacing a contract that you're (or they're) not even subject to.

Jim

As for your first point. Yes, it's specifically spelled out that new hires will be junior to both groups. Therefore, since both contracts still apply, and furlough is in seniority order, the new hires ARE REQUIRED to be furloughed first. Just as USAPA has claimed all along.

Your second point makes NO SENSE. The ALPA East MEC ensured the East group that membership ratification was a REQUIREMENT of the TA. NOT SO. While they made it a "POLICY", largely due to the backlash of past contracts and TAs which had been unilaterally imposed on the membership by the MEC, I see NOTHING in the TA which requires it for EITHER SIDE.

Also, it says in the TA that sides will be kept separate UNTIL COMBINATION OF THE MECS. Well, I guess that makes it all MOOT, since, due to the fact that USAPA has been elected the CBA, and both sides have been combined, it meets that requirement. Therefore, all that is required is a simple membership ratification, as per the USAPA C&BLs.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

For the benefit of those "cats" who are being "killed by curiosity", I have two nephews that work in this industry so have some vested interest in the outcome of this experiment.

Jim

I am not a cat nor am I killed by curiosity. I have no idea if my vested interest is bigger than yours is but I hazard a a guess that it is. However, I will not require you to get out your measuring tape.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

The price paid for not having access to the USAPA website - I was going by the printed copy of the last contract.

Jim

Actually you do have access like everybody, for now. Don't know when the changeover date for personal log in will take place. But from LOA #75, pertinent details:


12. Pilots’ System Seniority List

The Pilots’ System Seniority List, as established by the Award of Arbitrator
George Nicolau dated June 6, 1999 (the “Nicolau Awardâ€￾), shall constitute the official
Pilots’ System Seniority List. Commencing on the Integration Date, US Airways shall
implement such Pilots’ System Seniority List consistent with ALPA Merger Policy and
the attached Nicolau Award Implementation of Conditions and Restrictions document
dated the 17th of November 1999 (“Nicolau Implementation Agreementâ€￾). Any disputes
concerning interpretation of the Nicolau Award which are not covered by the Nicolau
Implementation Agreement will be resolved in the same manner as specified in Article
IV of the Nicolau Implementation Agreement.

13. Length of Service
The length of service of former Shuttle pilots shall include all service as a
pilot with Trump and Shuttle, Inc. The length of service of former Shuttle pilots shall
also include prior service at Eastern Air Lines for pilots who transferred to the Trump
Shuttle effective on or before June 8, 1989. In no case shall a pilot carry forward more
Eastern service to US Airways than the pilot carried to Trump.


If the Shuttle/Empire guys are successful in establishing a new list l wonder what happens to Nic2?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I am not a cat nor am I killed by curiosity.

I just used your question as a jumping off point, although it could have easily been taken as a direct reply to you. Several others have wondered about my interest so my post was really a blanket reply to all. Guess the attempt at humor by linking it to the "Curiosity killed the cat" reference was too subtle.

Strange, though, that no one on the East side has expressed any wonderment at the interest someone working for another carrier on the other side of the world would have in this issue...

Jim

 

[CaptBud330]

Jim, keep up the insightful posts. I retired off the 330 in 2005 and I still enjoy reading this board. You enjoying retirement? Bud

 

[BoeingBoy]

As for your first point. Yes, it's specifically spelled out that new hires will be junior to both groups.

Isn't that what I said???

Therefore, since both contracts still apply, and furlough is in seniority order, the new hires ARE REQUIRED to be furloughed first.

Sure sounds like what I said too...the TA doesn't spell out any particular furlough order, leaving furloughs subject to the rules in each of the separate contracts. Hence, the TA implies a particular furlough order.

Your second point makes NO SENSE. <snip extraneous anti-ALPA rant> I see NOTHING in the TA which requires it for EITHER SIDE.

Didn't I say it was implied, and not specifically spelled out. Just like the furlough order, it's implied in the TA and specified in the underlying contracts (or in this case not specified) - can you point to any contract language that gives East the right to vote on the West contract or vice versa?

Also, it says in the TA that sides will be kept separate UNTIL COMBINATION OF THE MECS.

Nothing like picking out one sentence which fits your argument and ignoring everything else - like Section II (A) which says "The pilot workforces of America West and US Airways will remain separate and covered by their respective collective bargaining agreements (the “Separate Operationsâ€￾) until Operational Pilot Integration as provided in Section VI. A.

No Operational Pilot Integration yet so no combined pilot group. That's as true under USAPA as it was under ALPA (two pilot groups each with their own contract despite having the same CBA) since the TA is still binding. All of the TA, not just the odd sentence you happen to like.

And with that, I'm off to a birthday/Halloween party - Happy Halloween all...

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

You enjoying retirement? Bud

Still think it's great and wish I'd done it sooner.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

Pilots have far more to lose.

Yes. And maybe that fact should give you some inkling as to the level of frustration and anger that is present in this pilot group. We (that is, most of us) are not willing to give anything else NO MATTER WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES. We're fed up and have been for some time due to the dirty dealings of the company and the previous union. When things around here looked particularly grim, many of us had an awakening of sorts. We realized that there is indeed life after USAirways. We can thank the management sleaze-bags of the Siegel-Wolf era for allowing us to learn that important lesson, and giving us the wherewithal to finally draw that line in the sand (no pun.)

We're not the ones who will be blinking this time.

 

[Phoenix]

In order to have career expectations you first have to have a place to work.

Your premise that one can only work at USAir is without merit, and thus there is no need to continue reading past your "." after "work".

 

[nycbusdriver]

there are 14 airlines not named US Airways that will cheerfully take my money out of PHL.

As we've been hearing over and over and over and over and over and...

There are 14 Airline Forum Message Boards not named USAirways which need your attention.

Please. Oblige them.

 

[Captsummeroff]

This came up before and during the balloting process for the new CBA. USAPA made it clear that they would not reorder the functioning lists. USAPA never made any promises to the Empire or Shuttle pilots that they would recover their Empire or Eastern DOH. I defy anyone to show this on USAPA letterhead. When an ex-Empire pilot made a presentation to the USAPA BPR, they made it clear to him that they appreciated his input but would not be reordering the east list.



We have no way of knowing exactly what was said and to who, or when it was said. It’s probably safe to assume that someone on the Empire-Shuttle side believes they have some type of proof and I would have to believe their lawyer thinks it’s legitimate. There are two different issues here. If someone who represented usapa during the campaign made promises to any Empire-Shuttle pilot and that can be collaborated by testimony that's all you need. What happened after USAPA was voted in is an entirely different part of the case, I would say it actually helps the Empire-Shuttle suit, that AFTER the election the BPR told the Empire pilot they would not reorder the list, that’s where I see the problem for USAPA. Verbal commitments that can be proven are as good as the written word. I’m sure the deposition will flush all this out. Emails that were exchanged will all reappear. If there’s nothing there, then there’s no case. Is it true that the law firm that represents the Empire-Shuttle pilots is own by an east pilot?

 

[Megasnoop]

Ya just gotta love people who make up "facts" to support their argument....

The last contract was ratified in early 1998. Since then there have only been LOA's modifying that contract. Where you come up with "followed by 4 contracts" is a mystery.

Spare me your righteous indignation. Since 1998, weve had 4 major changes (downgrades) in our contract. But 1998 was a keystroke error. Since the multi-mergers around 1988 weve had 4 contracts.

As for the Empire deal, that was "codified" by using the US/PI combined list as contained in the quote from the current contract. On the other hand, until the last ex-Empire pilot retires there'll still be a C&R giving them some protection (unless USAPA drops that from a combined contract.)

My point exactly, regardless how many contracts weve had since 1998 or 1988, Empire placement is in stone. Theyre wasting their money. snuper.

 

[nostradamus]

Hey no skin off my butt, there are 14 airlines not named US Airways that will cheerfully take my money out of PHL.

Piney, the employees do not want your business, let the other companies cheerfully take your business. My first job in sales was, frankly, to get rid of people like you. You are a person that wants a lot for your peanut size contribution to the bottom line.

Sir, you are not worth the trouble, take your business elsewhere. There is the door sir, do not let it hit your behind on the way out.

 

[nostradamus]

Ahhh....if only American had purchased PSA!
Armen Janzen was voted in as MEC Chairman. All of the contractual provisions that were changed on his watch were voted in by a majority of the USAir pilots. Nothing that happened was a unilateral decision.

Sir, your former business partner of psa airlines, Janzen, got himself elected with alpa help. I am saying and accuse him of being a dishonest person, otherwise known as a crook. He got himself elected as the Us Airways head of the airline pilot association. He had former psa pilots put on the Us airways pension plan. Mr Janszen used all his sick time up, took his million dollars in pension benifits he never earned and then went to work for alpa national.

Sir I do not recall you defending the most important allegation I made. Sir, you gave me an alpa type response.