Tiger 1050
Veteran
- Aug 4, 2007
- 882
- 12
So do widebody airplanes fly differently requiring some superior set of piloting skills? Wow! Who'd a thunk it...
Sorry RR had to poke you on that one... Got a good laugh though. Thanks!
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US Pilots' Labor Discussion 10/27-11/?
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
- Status
So do widebody airplanes fly differently requiring some superior set of piloting skills? Wow! Who'd a thunk it...
Sorry RR had to poke you on that one... Got a good laugh though. Thanks!
Reed Richards
Veteran
- Sep 2, 2009
- 1,389
- 1,161
So do widebody airplanes fly differently requiring some superior set of piloting skills? Wow! Who'd a thunk it...
Sorry RR had to poke you on that one... Got a good laugh though. Thanks!
That's ok, I had it coming!
RR
nycbusdriver
Veteran
Having lived through it, I can honestly say you are totally wrong. The bankruptcy judge said that in his opinion the pilots' pension met the criteria for a distress termination. However, he went on to say specifically that he did NOT have the authority to terminate the plan.
Did you get that? Can I repeat: A federal bankruptcy judge said he did NOT have the authority to terminate the pilots' defined benefits plan.
That is why it had to be given away in the (literally) dark of the night by a bunch of ALPA reps who within the preceding day or two SWORE that it wouldn't happen without a pilot vote.
By the way: A federal bankruptcy judge does NOT have the authority to terminate an ERISA defined benefit plan. At least in the opinion of a real federal bankruptcy judge.
DEBTOR IN POSSESSION (DIP) Financers wanted to get Usairways pension of the books to get the union contracts in line with the LCC HP
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
- 5,865
- Banned
- #200
I think you may be mixing up the two bankruptcues, john john. All but the pilot's pension were termined in BK 2 and Air Wisconsin provided DIP financing. They just wanted a place to fly their CRJ-200's. It was BK 2 where the urban legned is that US wanted to get labor costs inl line with HP for the merger.
The pilots lost their pension in BK1, when a merger with HP was not on anyone's mind, including Siegel.
Jim
The pilots lost their pension in BK1, when a merger with HP was not on anyone's mind, including Siegel.
Jim
Come on john john, how much easier does it need to get for you to actually look up some information. You have a link on this thread to a fine article that has dates on it and you still can't figure it out.
A foolish post like that could have been avoided with a little effort on your part.
Exactly
The long-frozen pension plan of the agents, along with the pension plans of the flight attendants and the mechanics.
were terminate in bankruptcy II. The pilots had a sweet pension deal after bankruptcy I why do you think bankruptcy II was executed to get the contracts in line with LCC HP
US Airways CEO and VP Labor Relations meet with CWA president Morty Bahr...
CEO Bruce Lakefield and VP Jerry Glass met with CWA President Morty Bahr at CWA's DC Headquarters on Tuesday, July 13.
The US Airways executives asked for the meeting to present their view that US Airways needs employee concessions to avoid bankruptcy. They laid-out more specifics of their proposals for CWA Passenger Service pay and benefit cuts.
In general, their proposal is to offer a buyout package (somewhat less than the CWA's proposal), and those who refuse the buyout and remain on the job would be reduced to the America West level in pay, vacation, sick benefits, and retirement.
Retiree medical would be eliminated. Those recalled from furlough would come back at the starting rate.
Those on the job would keep their seniority, but be reduced to the America West pay scale (top rate of $13.10 per hour). The executives also implied they are considering moving the res centers to "lower cost areas".
All this is how management proposes to cut $122 million from the payroll and benefits of passenger service.
Our CWA research department continues to work with us on counter-proposals that will save the company money (very large amounts of money) but do not cut the employees' standard of living as the management's plan would.
There are no meetings with management scheduled at this point, but we will be setting up meetings in the near future.
CWA local presidents and staff will meet Friday with our bankruptcy attorney Dan Katz of the law firm Katz & Rantzman, and CWA research economists to review bankruptcy procedures and to develop data on our proposals.
We'll keep you informed of developments as they unfold.
STORY>
http://web.archive.org/web/20040726000612/...://www.cwa.net/
More foolish post
Please take the time to look over these CWA updates and news articles
Pay close attention to the timelines
US Airways executives' new business plan looks like a disaster plan...
Eight months after coming out of bankruptcy, US Airways executives are trying to sell parts of the airline to stay afloat, according to the New York Times. The Times article says executives have retained the firm of Morgan Stanley to help evaluate and sell pieces of the airline - the US Airways Shuttle, US Airways Express, certain LGA and BOS gates, and one of the three hubs.
The article also refers to the widespread speculation within the airline industry that US Airways is heading back into bankruptcy.
It is clear that the current US Airways executives have failed to come up with a successful post-bankruptcy business plan so, logically, something new has to be tried. But it's hard to see how the airline can thrive if their "new" business plan involves selling choice pieces of the airline and further downsizing. We can expect more jobs will be lost if this happens. That sounds like a recipe for disaster rather than success.
HERE ARE SOME THOUGHTS WE HAVE ABOUT THIS LATEST DEVELOPMENT:
•Selling-off major parts of US Airways will likely be the beginning of the end for the airline; has the asset sale been thoroughly reviewed and OK'ed by the Board of Directors?
•Has the Board of Directors commissioned a second opinion by competent airline analysts before OK'ing this move?
•Was the recent plan to work-out a revised business plan with union and employee participation just a smokescreen for the real plan - selling-off US Airways piece by piece?
•And, finally, it's possible the plan to sell-off parts of US Airways is, itself, a plan to put pressure on employees to make more concessions. Time will tell what the executives, and the Board of Directors, are up to.
Maybe employees should subscribe to the New York Times; the paper has more up-to-date information on US Airways than the executives' weekly telephone message.
Full text of the NYT story>
To BK or not to BK, that is the question…
"We will restructure the airline with or without the employees." That now-famous remark by Dr. Bronner has been interpreted to mean that management has a plan to declare bankruptcy (BK in finance shorthand) for a second time. That would mean they could change the employment contracts without a vote of the employees.
Feeding the speculation are various website postings claiming that a US Airways official has described a "pre-packaged bankruptcy where the equity is preserved or re-issued and the company rejects lease agreements and labor contracts."
Ethical problem: If US Airways attempts another bankruptcy in order to reject employment contracts, it will put the ethical values of the corporation on the line.
Goldman Sachs sheds light on recent statements by US Airways executives... When Goldman Sachs says, "We suspect that [US Airways] proposed asset sales were primarily a threat to get labor back to the table," it is clear that some in the business world take the statements of our execs with a grain of salt.
US Airways filed for bankruptcy protection on Sept. 12 2004
CWA’ers met with management on 6/22 to hear the details of their Transformation plan...CWA presented alternatives...
6-23-2004
CWA'ers and management will meet to discuss cost-cutting proposals…
7/16/2004
CWA local presidents, staff and analysts will meet with US Airways management beginning Tuesday, July 27, at US Airways Headquarters, to review and discuss management's most recent proposals (buyout and America West pay and benefits) and the CWA proposals (buyout and res work at home).
We will be discussing our ideas for ways in which our contract might be amended to provide substantial cost savings through the buyout and WAH plan, but without the drastic cuts in living standard that management has been proposing so far.
We expect this will lead to several days of discussions in July.
Any proposed changes must be voted on and ratified by CWA members. We'll keep you posted after each meeting.
CWA Local Officers and Staff
http://web.archive.org/web/20041206003739/http://cwa.net/
Creditors' Committee Appointed for US Airways
By Keith L. Alexander
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, September 21, 2004
US Airways' four major unions and nine of its largest creditors were appointed yesterday to a creditors' committee, which will play a critical role in the carrier's reorganization.
Nearly 200 lawyers, creditors and financial advisers crowded into the ballroom of the Key Bridge Marriott hotel in Rosslyn yesterday, seeking a spot on the committee that will help steer management decisions during the airline's bankruptcy.
U.S. Trustee W. Clarkson McDow Jr. appointed the Air Line Pilots Association, the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, the Communication Workers of America, and the Association of Flight Attendants. Several aircraft and engine manufacturers, including Airbus North America Holdings Inc., General Electric Co. and Bombardier Inc., also were appointed.
The committee will include the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., the federal agency that took over the airline's pilots pension plan during its first bankruptcy nearly two years ago. Also on the committee is Electronic Data Systems Corp., Sabre Holdings Corp., U.S. Bank, Wachovia Corp. and the airline's food supplier LSG Skychefs.
http://web.archive.org/web/20041206003739/http://cwa.net/
Management turns down CWA's six-month, $33 million cost reduction offer and demands much, much more…
10-7-04
CWA Board Clears the Way for Possible Strike By US Airways Passenger Service Agents
11/30/2004
Management files to reject the contracts of passenger service, flight attendants, mechanics and ramp, and also files to terminate all pension plans...
11-13-04
Management could not explain how our frozen plan (which they now claim is $270 million underfunded) could have deteriorated when it was fully funded at the time it was frozen.
CWA will meet with actuaries for the plan to try to get to the bottom of that question.
Bankruptcy hearing will be on December 2... Negotiations momentum has been lost because of management contracting-out demands...
11-18-04
Management ‘s last proposal still has several extreme demands:
CWA Board Clears the Way for Possible Strike By US Airways Passenger Service Agents
11/30/2004
CWA reaches tentative agreement with US Airways management... now members will vote on the contract...
12/02/2004
http://web.archive.org/web/20040401183327/...LOFFNYTjump.asp
Mgmt attempts
to suppress
CWA report on
Labor Advisory
meeting... We
believe members are entitled
to know the substance and
content of our meetings with
management, and also the
direction and implication of
policies and programs that
are under discussion. The
only exception we make is
that we don’t publicly report
legitimate, unreleased,
“business confi dential†data,
charts, or strategies that would
aid or assist a competitor of
US Airways.
Management does not like
this CWA policy. From day one
they have complained about
our reports to our members
and have tried to prevent or
censor the distribution of
legitimate information. In the
past, management has even
threatened to sue us (i.e. last
December when we reported
the CEO’s threat to shut down
the airline before Christmas if
the unions didn’t accept the
second round of negotiations),
and now they are on another
tirade about our membership
Update Report on the May 22
Labor Advisory Committee
meeting.
Please take the time to look over these CWA updates and news articles
Pay close attention to the timelines
US Airways executives' new business plan looks like a disaster plan...
Eight months after coming out of bankruptcy, US Airways executives are trying to sell parts of the airline to stay afloat, according to the New York Times. The Times article says executives have retained the firm of Morgan Stanley to help evaluate and sell pieces of the airline - the US Airways Shuttle, US Airways Express, certain LGA and BOS gates, and one of the three hubs.
The article also refers to the widespread speculation within the airline industry that US Airways is heading back into bankruptcy.
It is clear that the current US Airways executives have failed to come up with a successful post-bankruptcy business plan so, logically, something new has to be tried. But it's hard to see how the airline can thrive if their "new" business plan involves selling choice pieces of the airline and further downsizing. We can expect more jobs will be lost if this happens. That sounds like a recipe for disaster rather than success.
HERE ARE SOME THOUGHTS WE HAVE ABOUT THIS LATEST DEVELOPMENT:
•Selling-off major parts of US Airways will likely be the beginning of the end for the airline; has the asset sale been thoroughly reviewed and OK'ed by the Board of Directors?
•Has the Board of Directors commissioned a second opinion by competent airline analysts before OK'ing this move?
•Was the recent plan to work-out a revised business plan with union and employee participation just a smokescreen for the real plan - selling-off US Airways piece by piece?
•And, finally, it's possible the plan to sell-off parts of US Airways is, itself, a plan to put pressure on employees to make more concessions. Time will tell what the executives, and the Board of Directors, are up to.
Maybe employees should subscribe to the New York Times; the paper has more up-to-date information on US Airways than the executives' weekly telephone message.
Full text of the NYT story>
To BK or not to BK, that is the question…
"We will restructure the airline with or without the employees." That now-famous remark by Dr. Bronner has been interpreted to mean that management has a plan to declare bankruptcy (BK in finance shorthand) for a second time. That would mean they could change the employment contracts without a vote of the employees.
Feeding the speculation are various website postings claiming that a US Airways official has described a "pre-packaged bankruptcy where the equity is preserved or re-issued and the company rejects lease agreements and labor contracts."
Ethical problem: If US Airways attempts another bankruptcy in order to reject employment contracts, it will put the ethical values of the corporation on the line.
Goldman Sachs sheds light on recent statements by US Airways executives... When Goldman Sachs says, "We suspect that [US Airways] proposed asset sales were primarily a threat to get labor back to the table," it is clear that some in the business world take the statements of our execs with a grain of salt.
US Airways filed for bankruptcy protection on Sept. 12 2004
CWA’ers met with management on 6/22 to hear the details of their Transformation plan...CWA presented alternatives...
6-23-2004
CWA'ers and management will meet to discuss cost-cutting proposals…
7/16/2004
CWA local presidents, staff and analysts will meet with US Airways management beginning Tuesday, July 27, at US Airways Headquarters, to review and discuss management's most recent proposals (buyout and America West pay and benefits) and the CWA proposals (buyout and res work at home).
We will be discussing our ideas for ways in which our contract might be amended to provide substantial cost savings through the buyout and WAH plan, but without the drastic cuts in living standard that management has been proposing so far.
We expect this will lead to several days of discussions in July.
Any proposed changes must be voted on and ratified by CWA members. We'll keep you posted after each meeting.
CWA Local Officers and Staff
http://web.archive.org/web/20041206003739/http://cwa.net/
Creditors' Committee Appointed for US Airways
By Keith L. Alexander
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, September 21, 2004
US Airways' four major unions and nine of its largest creditors were appointed yesterday to a creditors' committee, which will play a critical role in the carrier's reorganization.
Nearly 200 lawyers, creditors and financial advisers crowded into the ballroom of the Key Bridge Marriott hotel in Rosslyn yesterday, seeking a spot on the committee that will help steer management decisions during the airline's bankruptcy.
U.S. Trustee W. Clarkson McDow Jr. appointed the Air Line Pilots Association, the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, the Communication Workers of America, and the Association of Flight Attendants. Several aircraft and engine manufacturers, including Airbus North America Holdings Inc., General Electric Co. and Bombardier Inc., also were appointed.
The committee will include the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., the federal agency that took over the airline's pilots pension plan during its first bankruptcy nearly two years ago. Also on the committee is Electronic Data Systems Corp., Sabre Holdings Corp., U.S. Bank, Wachovia Corp. and the airline's food supplier LSG Skychefs.
http://web.archive.org/web/20041206003739/http://cwa.net/
Management turns down CWA's six-month, $33 million cost reduction offer and demands much, much more…
10-7-04
CWA Board Clears the Way for Possible Strike By US Airways Passenger Service Agents
11/30/2004
Management files to reject the contracts of passenger service, flight attendants, mechanics and ramp, and also files to terminate all pension plans...
11-13-04
Management could not explain how our frozen plan (which they now claim is $270 million underfunded) could have deteriorated when it was fully funded at the time it was frozen.
CWA will meet with actuaries for the plan to try to get to the bottom of that question.
Bankruptcy hearing will be on December 2... Negotiations momentum has been lost because of management contracting-out demands...
11-18-04
Management ‘s last proposal still has several extreme demands:
CWA Board Clears the Way for Possible Strike By US Airways Passenger Service Agents
11/30/2004
CWA reaches tentative agreement with US Airways management... now members will vote on the contract...
12/02/2004
http://web.archive.org/web/20040401183327/...LOFFNYTjump.asp
Mgmt attempts
to suppress
CWA report on
Labor Advisory
meeting... We
believe members are entitled
to know the substance and
content of our meetings with
management, and also the
direction and implication of
policies and programs that
are under discussion. The
only exception we make is
that we don’t publicly report
legitimate, unreleased,
“business confi dential†data,
charts, or strategies that would
aid or assist a competitor of
US Airways.
Management does not like
this CWA policy. From day one
they have complained about
our reports to our members
and have tried to prevent or
censor the distribution of
legitimate information. In the
past, management has even
threatened to sue us (i.e. last
December when we reported
the CEO’s threat to shut down
the airline before Christmas if
the unions didn’t accept the
second round of negotiations),
and now they are on another
tirade about our membership
Update Report on the May 22
Labor Advisory Committee
meeting.
USAirwasys was in and out of bankruptcy I very fast and immediately received a $1 billion loan, of which $900 million is federally guaranteed. It also received a $240 million investment from the Retirement Systems of Alabama, a pension fund for government workers and was the airline's largest shareholder.
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
- 5,865
- Banned
- #206
John john,
I don't see anywhere in all that where it supports your statement that "DEBTOR IN POSSESSION (DIP) Financers wanted to get Usairways pension of the books to get the union contracts in line with the LCC HP"
1st, there weren't "DIP Financers', there was only Air Wiscon
2nd, as I said Air Wisconsin was only interested in securing a place for their CRJ's.
Jim
I don't see anywhere in all that where it supports your statement that "DEBTOR IN POSSESSION (DIP) Financers wanted to get Usairways pension of the books to get the union contracts in line with the LCC HP"
1st, there weren't "DIP Financers', there was only Air Wiscon
2nd, as I said Air Wisconsin was only interested in securing a place for their CRJ's.
Jim
Was Air Wisconsin the only DIP thoughtout the bankruptcy and only one provideing exit financing
The merge with HP was in the works as early as July 2004 EAST union contracts had to be inline with HP for a merge to take place management proposals were inline with HP employees cost
None of HP employees have a define pension plan. All of US employee had a frozen pension plan except the pilots they had a very sweet company plan. I thing we all have a good ideal why the US pilots plan was terminated during BK I. BKII came in place solely for the merge. What was left of the employees contract had to fall inline with HP for the merge to fly Glass and gang had a job to do and that was to make the merger happen.What did seaberry have up its sleeve to make a merger with HP happen? I am sure union contracts had a lot to do with it
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
He also said that USAirways could not exit bankruptcy protection unless they
1) terminated the DB plan or
2) came up with a reorganization plan that accounted for the future funding obligations of the DB plan
No such plan was offered because none was possible.
The evidence for my assertion is the fact that we went bankrupt a second time without funding the DB plan.
I know you would not intentionally mislead anyone so leaving that part of the story out must have been an oversight on your part.
- Banned
- #209
Thats odd in BK II he terminated M&R, FA and the frozen plan from 92.
Dogandsuds
Newbie
- Oct 25, 2009
- 10
- 0
700UW, get a room! I'm beginning to think you guys need a separate thread to fight about the pension. It's non-stop "he said, she said." Being on furlough % with nothing vested and nothing lost, for me it's a bore. I'm making an effort to get info out of this board, not contribute to the East Vs West and ALPA Vs USAPA war. It seems like when one topic dies down, like the DFR, there's a need to go back to the past & blame someone for something. Let me tell you, when you're on furlough, the blame games are the least of your worries. I don't have a lot of sources here for U info. The USAPA updates are helpful. They give me a sense of still being on board. The HUB is like a White House Spin Doctor, but at least they put the pilot meetings on view. I appreciate the posts here, but wow, why all the got-yas? The past is over. ALPA's gone. I'm not getting any vibes they'll get much support trying to get back.
I got to ask, does anyone else see the company talking positive with the analysts, but talking gloom & doom with the company? How can they have it both ways? Is that even legal under Oxley-Sarbanes?Is this the good-cop, bad-cop routine, with Kirby telling the analysts what they want to hear & Bular almost declaring BK?
To the guys who PMed me about my overseas job, I promise I'll get back to you with info when I figure out how this PM thing works. Right now, I'm still at the read-only level. I kept looking all over for the board rules to find rule #3 which got my first post reduced. I found the generic rules at the top, but they didn't have any numbered rules. I totally missed the "pinned" rules until today. I guess I'll figure it all out sooner or later. Dog
(It's easy to stay non-controversial when you don't have a 'dog' in the fight. I have my opinions, but don't need the hassle that comes with posting them here.)
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