US Pilot Labor Thread 10/27-11/2

[N924PS]

Sir, your former business partner of psa airlines, Janzen, got himself elected with alpa help. I am saying and accuse him of being a dishonest person, otherwise known as a crook. He got himself elected as the Us Airways head of the airline pilot association. He had former psa pilots put on the Us airways pension plan. Mr Janszen used all his sick time up, took his million dollars in pension benifits he never earned and then went to work for alpa national.

Sir I do not recall you defending the most important allegation I made. Sir, you gave me a alpa type response.

Strong words to use on a public forum.

Perhaps Armen's attorneys will be in touch with you soon, since you choose to make libelous remarks. They found Chip, they can find you too.

Your effort to discredit me deserves no reponse. Happy Halloween.

 

[Phoenix]

Well if you went to oh say continental wouldn't your career expectation be lower?

My premise is that a profitable US Airways (USAir doesn't exist) offers the BEST career expectation regardless of how the Seniority list is compiled.

Hey no skin off my butt, there are 14 airlines not named US Airways that will cheerfully take my money out of PHL.

USAir doesn't exist.. OK.

I know.. I know.. the company thinks they can convince the monkeys in the cockpit that USAir is the only one who can supply the monkeys with bananas.

You have 14 airlines to provide you travel.

You also have your thumb, a car, a boat, a bus, a train, or a charter or private plane. If the 14 airlines adopted the premise that you only have them for your travel expectations you would tell them they are mistaken and you wouldn't have to read past their first "."

 

[Phoenix]

.. I would have to believe their lawyer thinks it’s legitimate.

As long as they pay the bills the lawyer will likely continue in that belief. Just saying..

 

[nostradamus]

Strong words to use on a public forum.

Perhaps Armen's attorneys will be in touch with you soon, since you choose to make libelous remarks. They found Chip, they can find you too.

Your effort to discredit me deserves no reponse. Happy Halloween.

I am aware of the concept of slander, I speak the truth. I guarantee Janzen and alpa will not want to pursue
my allegations further.

 

[sharktooth]

Strong words to use on a public forum.

Perhaps Armen's attorneys will be in touch with you soon, since you choose to make libelous remarks. They found Chip, they can find you too.

Your effort to discredit me deserves no reponse. Happy Halloween.

You are completely out in left field, here, and an embarrassment to any PSA dudes left on the property. PSA did indeed make a few hiring mistakes. Perhaps you are one? Nos lives with a number of mistaken thoughts about what happened and you offer more mistakes?

BTW, what did Armen have to do with the munster?

 

[Captsummeroff]

As long as they pay the bills the lawyer will likely continue in that belief. Just saying..

That maybe true, it may also be true of the AOL and USAPA lawyers Lawyers will make money in all this, pilots will spend money. Rumor has it that the Empire-Shuttle lawyer did take an initial cut of money but will now do a majority of his work pro bono, seems he's no fan of USAPA.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

...Rumor has it that the Empire-Shuttle lawyer did take an initial cut of money but will now do a majority of his work pro bono, seems he's no fan of USAPA.

There goes YOUR credibility. My BS meter just went off scale high.

 

[BoeingBoy]

But 1998 was a keystroke error. Since the multi-mergers around 1988 weve had 4 contracts.

While I can only read what you type, not what you intend to type, I'm the last one to throw stones at anyone's "fat finger" errors - I've made enough of my own. So I withdraw my charge of "made up" facts and agree with your statement as intended.

Empire placement is in stone. Theyre wasting their money. snuper.

They may well be wasting their money but I wouldn't be so quick on the draw. Does the USAPA merger language say that pre-merger lists (US-HP in this case) can't be rearranged. It would be strange for a union which believes that seniority is negotiable at any time to have such language since the two premises don't fit together. If seniority is indeed negotiable, USAPA can choose to renegotiate the Empire and Shuttle pilots' seniority at will, despite what previous contracts stated. If seniority previously "set in stone" isn't negotiable, then no seniority is negotiable.

Jim

 

[Megasnoop]

While I can only read what you type, not what you intend to type, I'm the last one to throw stones at anyone's "fat finger" errors - I've made enough of my own. So I withdraw my charge of "made up" facts and agree with your statement as intended.

Fair enough. And I withdraw my comment about "righteous indignation." Unlike some posters here, I try to keep the barbs to a minimum.

They may well be wasting their money but I wouldn't be so quick on the draw. Does the USAPA merger language say that pre-merger lists (US-HP in this case) can't be rearranged. It would be strange for a union which believes that seniority is negotiable at any time to have such language since the two premises don't fit together. If seniority is indeed negotiable, USAPA can choose to renegotiate the Empire and Shuttle pilots' seniority at will, despite what previous contracts stated. If seniority previously "set in stone" isn't negotiable, then no seniority is negotiable.

Jim

USAPA has to live with the current east list placement based on 20 years of Kagel and 8 years of NIC #1. USAPA would rather have 280 pilots suing on a hail mary than 2800 suing us on a list that has been in stone. Seniority IS negotiable before implemented no doubt. But NOT negotiable after a list is already operational. Trump and Empire pilots accepted the list over the years. No court is going to allow that kind of whipsaw 20 or 8 years later. I cant imagine overcoming a statute of limitations, much less the 20/8 years of acquiecense. That has always been my point. The West hypes the IS, but ignores the NOT. snuper

 

[traderjake]

As we've been hearing over and over and over and over and over and...

There are 14 Airline Forum Message Boards not named USAirways which need your attention.

Please. Oblige them.

Asking the people who pay our salary to go away.

Do you have any other pearls of wisdom to offer?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Seniority IS negotiable before implemented no doubt. But NOT negotiable after a list is already operational.

That isn't the position that USAPA took in it's response to the West lawsuit, when it quoted the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals:

“It is quite well established in this Circuit that seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement, and so may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement. Employee seniority rights are not ‘vested’ property rights which lie beyond the reach of subsequent union-employer negotiations conducted in the course of their evolving bargaining relationship. A union thus may renegotiate seniority provisions of a collective bargaining agreement, even though the resulting changes are essentially retroactive or affect different employees unequally.â€￾ [emphasis added]

Certainly USAPA can choose not to revisit the Empire or Shuttle integrations, but that is different from not being able to. However, it would seem that doing so would at least open the door to a DFR suit....oops, it already has.

Jim

 

[Eastisleast]

Yes. And maybe that fact should give you some inkling as to the level of frustration and anger that is present in this pilot group. We (that is, most of us) are not willing to give anything else NO MATTER WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES. We're fed up and have been for some time due to the dirty dealings of the company and the previous union. When things around here looked particularly grim, many of us had an awakening of sorts. We realized that there is indeed life after USAirways. We can thank the management sleaze-bags of the Siegel-Wolf era for allowing us to learn that important lesson, and giving us the wherewithal to finally draw that line in the sand (no pun.)

We're not the ones who will be blinking this time.

Just "most of us" fall on your swords already and let the rest us infected with US Airways cancer try to survive.

 

[fodase]

That isn't the position that USAPA took in it's response to the West lawsuit, when it quoted the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals:

“It is quite well established in this Circuit that seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement, and so may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement. Employee seniority rights are not ‘vested’ property rights which lie beyond the reach of subsequent union-employer negotiations conducted in the course of their evolving bargaining relationship. A union thus may renegotiate seniority provisions of a collective bargaining agreement, even though the resulting changes are essentially retroactive or affect different employees unequally.â€￾ [emphasis added]

Certainly USAPA can choose not to revisit the Empire or Shuttle integrations, but that is different from not being able to. However, it would seem that doing so would at least open the door to a DFR suit....oops, it already has.

Jim

Jim what part of usapa and the east get to make all the rules don't you understand? I wonder how history will regard the east pilots and their fearless self appointed leader.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

That isn't the position that USAPA took in it's response to the West lawsuit, when it quoted the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals:

“It is quite well established in this Circuit that seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement, and so may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement. Employee seniority rights are not ‘vested’ property rights which lie beyond the reach of subsequent union-employer negotiations conducted in the course of their evolving bargaining relationship. A union thus may renegotiate seniority provisions of a collective bargaining agreement, even though the resulting changes are essentially retroactive or affect different employees unequally.â€￾ [emphasis added]

Certainly USAPA can choose not to revisit the Empire or Shuttle integrations, but that is different from not being able to. However, it would seem that doing so would at least open the door to a DFR suit....oops, it already has.

Jim

That's fine. I think it is USAPA's right and prerogative to decide at what point they are drawing the line in correcting the injustices of the past CBA. I don't think it is out of line for them to say that their responsibility began when they were elected, and not before. There is NOTHING in their preelection information which indicates ANYTHING about reordering the currently established lists.

Personally, I say again, I think that it would set a good precedent to do so, but then it opens up the whole argument again about which DOH to use for the Shuttle guys, EAL or, the carrier which U acquired, Trump. I could actually see this costing the Trump guys a lot of their seniority. Especially if the criteria used is the one in their own lawsuit, that the pilots get their DOH at the acquired carrier.

USAPA is not obligated to correct the injustices created by ALPA. It's interesting that Jim is arguing in favor of this, considering he was a member of the ALPA group that so thoroughly screwed the Empire folks, whom, by the way, were all assigned a DOH of 12/5/85, I believe.

 

[nycbusdriver]

It's interesting that Jim is arguing in favor of this, considering he was a member of the ALPA group that so thoroughly screwed the Empire folks, whom, by the way, were all assigned a DOH of 12/5/85, I believe.

I can't speak for BB, but I was also a "member" of that ALPA group. ALPA, and the (original) Piedmont MEC, basically asked for zero input from the rank-and-file, which was the typical ALPA modus operandi of the time, and still controls 95% of what they do to this day. I personally thought the Empire list merge was a screw job, but no one was listening to me. And many of us at the time thought that the MEC had acted imperiously. IOW, they screwed the Empire pilots because they could get away with it.

So please, don't use such a wide brush to paint every Piedmont ALPA member as screwing the Empire pilots. ALPA likes to keep their rank-and-file powerless, and their entire structure is set up to that end. The only way to regain any of that power is to vote their collecteive butts off the property. Until April 17th, most thought it was impossible.