US Pilot Labor Thread 10/27-11/2

[oldiebutgoody]

I can't speak for BB, but I was also a "member" of that ALPA group. ALPA, and the (original) Piedmont MEC, basically asked for zero input from the rank-and-file, which was the typical ALPA modus operandi of the time, and still controls 95% of what they do to this day. I personally thought the Empire list merge was a screw job, but no one was listening to me. And many of us at the time thought that the MEC had acted imperiously. IOW, they screwed the Empire pilots because they could get away with it.

So please, don't use such a wide brush to paint every Piedmont ALPA member as screwing the Empire pilots. ALPA likes to keep their rank-and-file powerless, and their entire structure is set up to that end. The only way to regain any of that power is to vote their collecteive butts off the property. Until April 17th, most thought it was impossible.

Good point. Very insightful. I stand corrected.

It was not my intent to imply that anyone here had a direct hand in it, only that I had not heard the voice of outrage being raised at the time this happened, but now it's all USAPA's fault.

 

[cleardirect]

That's fine. I think it is USAPA's right and prerogative to decide at what point they are drawing the line in correcting the injustices of the past CBA. I don't think it is out of line for them to say that their responsibility began when they were elected, and not before.

Oldie,

Thank you so much. You finally get the west’s point of view. I could not have said it any better.

You are 100% correct. The east considers the Nicolau unjust. It is not USAPA right or prerogative to correct as you believe the prior CBA’s wrong. That was then this is now.

USAPA is not obligated to correct the injustices created by ALPA. It's interesting that Jim is arguing in favor of this, considering he was a member of the ALPA group that so thoroughly screwed the Empire folks, whom, by the way, were all assigned a DOH of 12/5/85, I believe.

Again you make the point. The east feels that that ALPA created the Nicolau and it was unjust. ALPA is gone now. USAPA is not obligated to correct that. Great! We can all accept the Nicolau award and move on.

 

[Metroyet]

We (that is, most of us) are not willing to give anything else NO MATTER WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES.
We're not the ones who will be blinking this time.

Empty Idle Threats. Nobody...and I mean NOBODY, is scared of your little fake union.

Attempts of Blind, Unguided Intimidation is all usapa has to offer. Pathetic and meaningless.

 

[Captsummeroff]

There goes YOUR credibility. My BS meter just went off scale high.

I said it was a rumor. I wouldn't be so quick to pass it of as BS. It is true that the Empire-Shuttel lawyer is a non USAPA east pilot. It seems to me there's alot of bad blood over there.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Oldie,

Thank you so much. You finally get the west’s point of view. I could not have said it any better.

You are 100% correct. The east considers the Nicolau unjust. It is not USAPA right or prerogative to correct as you believe the prior CBA’s wrong. That was then this is now.




Again you make the point. The east feels that that ALPA created the Nicolau and it was unjust. ALPA is gone now. USAPA is not obligated to correct that. Great! We can all accept the Nicolau award and move on.

Great. Then you agree with DOH. And that USAPA has the duty to negotiate it into their next contract. Now, just send in the dues payment before you get your walking papers and we'll teach you the "secret handshake".

 

[Captsummeroff]

Fair enough. And I withdraw my comment about "righteous indignation." Unlike some posters here, I try to keep the barbs to a minimum.



USAPA has to live with the current east list placement based on 20 years of Kagel and 8 years of NIC #1. USAPA would rather have 280 pilots suing on a hail mary than 2800 suing us on a list that has been in stone. Seniority IS negotiable before implemented no doubt. But NOT negotiable after a list is already operational. Trump and Empire pilots accepted the list over the years. No court is going to allow that kind of whipsaw 20 or 8 years later. I cant imagine overcoming a statute of limitations, much less the 20/8 years of acquiecense. That has always been my point. The West hypes the IS, but ignores the NOT. snuper

This is what I don't understand. USAPA according to the lawsuit passed a resolution (it's named in the complaint) The BPR in a closed session meeting passed a unanimous resolution denying the Shuttle Empire pilots their DOH. Why did they have to pass a resolution to single out that group? We know from the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals where USAPA stand on it's rights dealing with seniority. For the union to pick and chose who gets what is a classic DFR by definition. This goes to trail (IMO) Logic say's USAPA will have to lose one of these cases.

 

[BoeingBoy]

That's fine. I think it is USAPA's right and prerogative to decide at what point they are drawing the line in correcting the injustices of the past CBA.

As I said, USAPA can choose not to revisit the Empire/PI or Trump/US integrations, even the MO/AL integration.

I could actually see this costing the Trump guys a lot of their seniority. Especially if the criteria used is the one in their own lawsuit, that the pilots get their DOH at the acquired carrier.

Possibly how USAPA wants it's members treated in a fragmentation situation would be revealing, and possibly of interest to a judge. Wonder what USAPA will negotiate for such situations in Section 1?

It's interesting that Jim is arguing in favor of this

That's the trouble with having discussions with some people - they apparently can't or don't care to read. I merely pointed out USAPA's apparent position on seniority, based on one of the quotes chosen to defend against a suit. Would you point out the part where I'm "arguing in favor" of that position?

My position is really quite simple - USAPA can have any merger policy it wants proactively - for future mergers - as long as that policy is within the "broad range" of reasonableness (as courts have said) and is not a method for the majority to inflict it's wishes on the minority or cause the minority harm (as courts have also said). I still don't think that the one size fits all use of DOH is fair but it may be within USAPA's power to use that method proactively - although the federal law would be guaranteed to come into play if USAPA did that, effectively leaving USAPA with a "negotiate and arbitrate if necessary" merger policy and not DOH.

I don't believe that USAPA can rewrite the integration of this merger - that step has been completed and trying to do so runs afoul of the "majority using the union to inflict it's will on the minority" rulings of courts up to and including the U.S. Supreme court. To me, all the talk about the Nic not being "codified" in the contract so it is only a negotiating position" is nonsense because one doesn't depend on the other for completion - no different than me leaving the house planning on going to the drug store and grocery store. If I go to the drug store but then decide to return home, could it be said that I didn't go to the drug store because I didn't go to the grocery store? Of course not.

For this merger, seniority integration is complete as far as I'm concerned. All that's left is to negotiate a combined contract and integration (at least for the pilots - F/A's may/may be done at that point) is complete. The Nic doesn't have to be "codefied" - it wouldn't have been if the contract had been settled before arbitratiion began.

Jim

 

[fodase]

That's fine. I think it is USAPA's right and prerogative to decide at what point they are drawing the line in correcting the injustices of the past CBA. I don't think it is out of line for them to say that their responsibility began when they were elected, and not before. There is NOTHING in their preelection information which indicates ANYTHING about reordering the currently established lists.

Personally, I say again, I think that it would set a good precedent to do so, but then it opens up the whole argument again about which DOH to use for the Shuttle guys, EAL or, the carrier which U acquired, Trump. I could actually see this costing the Trump guys a lot of their seniority. Especially if the criteria used is the one in their own lawsuit, that the pilots get their DOH at the acquired carrier.

USAPA is not obligated to correct the injustices created by ALPA. It's interesting that Jim is arguing in favor of this, considering he was a member of the ALPA group that so thoroughly screwed the Empire folks, whom, by the way, were all assigned a DOH of 12/5/85, I believe.

Well the nicolau was accepted by doug parker before usapa was certified, the merger and single certificate were finished before usapa was certified, all prior contracts stay in place. So how can you be able to rearrange only the lists you want? anyone with half a brain can see that you can't pick and choose, especially when usapa's position in court is that all lists are negotiable and subject to be rearranged anytime they want. You can't have both ways, and the fact you can't understand this shows how dumb you and your usapys are.

 

[BoeingBoy]

the fact you can't understand this shows how dumb you and your usapys are.

I wouldn't use the word "dumb" - some of the arguments presented are extremely clever, imaginative even. I'd use another "d" word - desperate, as in desperate to find any reason to "moot" the Nic award while leaving everything prior in place.

After all, DOH has served a significant portion of the East group extremely well over the years. When it wasn't as advantageous, it was discarded as in the PI/Empire merger and US/Trump mergers.

I think most would agree that ALPA did at least one thing right when it first came up with a merger policy (although even here I could be wrong). ALPA said that each merger was an isolated event, completely separated from any that came before or after at the same carrier. They did this by explicitly stating that neither pre-merger list would be rearranged.

USAPA, on the other hand, seems to be saying that it can rearrange seniority at any time they want - they just choose not to want to for certain mergers. That, to me, is an open invitation for a DFR suit when USAPA is so adamant that DOH "is the only fair way" to merge lists yet they choose not to apply it to all mergers at a carrier.

Jim

 

[fodase]

I wouldn't use the word "dumb" - some of the arguments presented are extremely clever, imaginative even. I'd use another "d" word - desperate, as in desperate to find any reason to "moot" the Nic award while leaving everything prior in place.

After all, DOH has served a significant portion of the East group extremely well over the years. When it wasn't as advantageous, it was discarded as in the PI/Empire merger and US/Trump mergers.

I think most would agree that ALPA did at least one thing right when it first came up with a merger policy (although even here I could be wrong). ALPA said that each merger was an isolated event, completely separated from any that came before or after at the same carrier. They did this by explicitly stating that neither pre-merger list would be rearranged.

USAPA, on the other hand, seems to be saying that it can rearrange seniority at any time they want - they just choose not to want to for certain mergers. That, to me, is an open invitation for a DFR suit when USAPA is so adamant that DOH "is the only fair way" to merge lists yet they choose not to apply it to all mergers at a carrier.

Jim

Jim you are correct as usual, it is so damn frustrating to listen to these guys contradict themselves that I figured I would try to shock him into reality. I'll rephrase it, only a mentally retarded person would take the position that the union can reorder seniority lists at any time, then say that it can only reorder the lists that suit them.

 

[nostradamus]

Separate operations. Bottom line. america west pilots are being furloughed now because of this.

II. Period of Separate Operations
A. The pilot workforces of America West and US Airways will remain separate and
covered by their respective collective bargaining agreements (the “Separate
Operationsâ€￾) until Operational Pilot Integration as provided in Section VI. A.
B. During Separate Operations:
1. US Airways Group will operate both America West and US Airways in
accordance with the terms of this Letter of Agreement and the provisions
of each carrier's respective collective bargaining agreement, as amended.
2. America West may operate under the US Airways designator code and
marketing identity. US Airways may operate under the America West
designator code and marketing identity.
3. The aircraft (including orders and options to purchase or lease aircraft)
and the operations of each of America West and US Airways will remain
separated. A list of all aircraft in the service of each of America West and
US Airways on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement is appended
as Attachment A; and the fleet plan for the merged airline (by airline and
tail number) is appended to this Letter of Agreement as Attachment B.
4. Pilots on the America West Seniority List will operate the aircraft in the
service of America West on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement
and pilots on the US Airways Seniority List will operate the aircraft in the
service of US Airways on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement.
Except as provided in paragraph 6. below, no pilot of either airline will fly
as a crewmember on an aircraft listed in Attachment A in the fleet of the
other airline.
a) The Airline Parties will not transfer aircraft

bottom line.

The reason 10 percent of the america west pilots are on the street and only 2 percent of Us Airways pilots is because the america west pilots and alpa. Hold your breath untill you turn blue in the face, that ill show em.

You failed to mention that the bottom america west pilots were expendable, bye bye mitch, it will continue. Thank you for your service sir. Good job and helping the more "senior pilots enjoy a temporary raise after undercutting the industry pilot pay standards for years."

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Jim you are correct as usual, it is so damn frustrating to listen to these guys contradict themselves that I figured I would try to shock him into reality. I'll rephrase it, only a mentally retarded person would take the position that the union can reorder seniority lists at any time, then say that it can only reorder the lists that suit them.

I guess you're calling the west lawyer, Mr. Freund, retarded? That's not very nice. In fact, some might call it outright childish.

Nostro,
Your point looks pretty iron clad. I never really read that the way you present it, but I see now what you mean. It does appear to tie the hands of the company as far as interchanging of assets and employees goes.

 

[nostradamus]

Mitch, you will be on the street soon, if you want a picture of your buddy john with his hand in your wallet, click here.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nostro,
Your point looks pretty iron clad.

Amazing how something can change from nonsense to iron clad depending on who says it...

While the company's hands are tied as far as interchanging crews or equip (because that "nonsense" about operational integration turns out to "iron clad"), Nos as usual misses the finer points in his desire to lash out at the West. Nothing other than a sense of fair play in the seniority dispute prevented the company from taking up to 100% of the non-new hire furloughs from either side.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

Well the nicolau was accepted by doug parker before usapa was certified,

Doug Parker accepted DELIVERY of the Nicolau award. He did not accept its implementation at that time, nor has he since.