US Pilot Labor Thread 10/19-10/26

[BoeingBoy]

The East had ALL the 190s prior to the merger

There were no 190's prior to the merger. There were 170's, which had been sold to Republic - old US couldn't even afford to take delivery of all of those.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

The difference between the Nic and DOH is that the Nic actually "places" or manipulates pilots wherever Nicolau decided was best. It is an artificial assemblage utilizing ambiguous and irrelevant factors such as expectations and financial snapshots, while ignoring the value of time on the job. Totally backwards.

DOH is self explanatory, fair and equitable. It doesn't place pilots like the Nic - out of their natural order. The 80% that would go below Colello is a misleading statement. They were already there - by virtue of when they arrived compared to when he arrived.

I finally understand the east confusion about this seniority issue. You guys think that you are still in control.

They were already there - by virtue of when they arrived compared to when he arrived.

That the west is showing up and asking to join your little flying club and that we hoping to be ADDED to YOUR list. Incorrect. The airline headquarters is in the west. The airline CEO and president are west guys. The east pilots are being added to our list.

So when Colello “arrivesâ€￾ he shows up as a furloughed F/O. He was placed on the combined list as a furloughed F/O. Our senior captains that were flying as senior captains continue to be senior captains under the Nicolau.

You want us to show up and be place on your list according to how long you have been standing in a line that has disappeared.

That 80% number is not misleading. That is a hard and fast number. USAPA wants Dean Colello is placed senior to every west F/O and a majority of all the west captains.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I finally understand the east confusion about this seniority issue. You guys think that you are still in control.

They were already there - by virtue of when they arrived compared to when he arrived.

That the west is showing up and asking to join your little flying club and that we hoping to be ADDED to YOUR list. Incorrect. The airline headquarters is in the west. The airline CEO and president are west guys. The east pilots are being added to our list.

So when Colello “arrivesâ€￾ he shows up as a furloughed F/O. He was placed on the combined list as a furloughed F/O. Our senior captains that were flying as senior captains continue to be senior captains under the Nicolau.

You want us to show up and be place on your list according to how long you have been standing in a line that has disappeared.

That 80% number is not misleading. That is a hard and fast number. USAPA wants Dean Colello is placed senior to every west F/O and a majority of all the west captains.

It's not about a place, or about our list or your list or where the headquarters is located. It's about a place in time. It's about when you got here on the collective property. Placing someone hired in the mid 80's behind someone hired in 2005 is simply a non-starter.

 

[BoeingBoy]

It's about when you got here on the collective property. Placing someone hired in the mid 80's behind someone hired in 2005 is simply a non-starter.

Simple but true - those Westies don't deserve the seniority they accrued at HP because Easties didn't accrue seniority as quickly. That is the East position in a nutshell...

The Nic list is a combined seniority list. East thinks it's unfair to combine the lists by seniority - those Westies haven't paid the price like the Easties - so want to combine by DOH.

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

Simple but true - those Westies don't deserve the seniority they accrued at HP because Easties didn't accrue seniority as quickly. That is the East position in a nutshell...

Jim

You are discounting the time value of work. I submit it has value. Seniority in PHX is protected.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You are discounting the time value of work.

Just how much "time value of work" does a furloughed pilot have? And what does that have to do with seniority. It's just another way of saying that the Westies don't deserve the seniority they accrued at HP prior to the merger since Easties didn't enjoy the same benefit.

Seniority in PHX is protected.

More like trapped, according to the C&R's that USAPA has proposed. Isn't the purpose of the exercise to combine seniority into a single list?

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

Just how much "time value of work" does a furloughed pilot have? And what does that have to do with seniority. It's just another way of saying that the Westies don't deserve the seniority they accrued at HP prior to the merger since Easties didn't enjoy the same benefit.



More like trapped, according to the C&R's that USAPA has proposed. Isn't the purpose of the exercise to combine seniority into a single list?

Jim

The rhetoric from the west has been "we don't want your flying" and "no one wishes to go east" - consequently, I will stick with my characterization that PHX is protected.

Furlough time is a special case which may still be addressed in the final version of Section 22.

What the time value of work has to do with seniority has been answered by every other union on the property, and most outside unions as well. It's only airline pilots that can't seem to learn from other union's better examples.

 

[BoeingBoy]

It's only airline pilots that can't seem to learn from other union's better examples.

Possibly because airline pilots have much more to gain or lose from the method of integration - "better" is usually in the eye of the beholder and depends on which method will gain the beholder the most or lose them the least. Still amounts to "How dare those Westies get seniority so fast." They don't deserve that "time value of work" because you didn't get the same value for the time you worked.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Possibly because airline pilots have much more to gain or lose from the method of integration - "better" is usually in the eye of the beholder and depends on which method will gain the beholder the most or lose them the least. Still amounts to "How dare those Westies get seniority so fast." They don't deserve that "time value of work" because you didn't get the same value for the time you worked.

Jim

The pilots are the only group arrogant enough to think that they can come up with a better system than DOH. All the others have embraced it, and their mergers worked fine. Pilot mergers are notoriously nasty, because they introduce all kinds of unquantifiable variables into what should be a simple, easy to understand formula.

Pilot mergers make news because they have ALWAYS been done wrong. You can't even explain them to others with a straight face.

The bottom line is, credit should be given for the amount of service given to the organization. LOS might be a better measure, but that was dismissed out-of-hand by the West group long ago.

Of course, I wouldn't expect any ALPA type to get it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The bottom line is, credit should be given for the amount of service given to the organization.

It is and it even has a name - seniority. Sometimes that credit (just another word for "time value for work") is negative (a pilot with X years of longevity can't even hold the job he had as a new hire), sometimes it's neutral (a pilot with Y years of service can only hold the same job as he held as a new hire) and sometimes it's very positive (a pilot with Y years longevity can hold a lot better job than was possible as a new hire).

For proof, just look at the percentage of former furloughed East pilots that returned. Some of those discovered that they had more "credit" for less years at a different employer than they would have at US with more years.

It still boils down to the same thing - East is entitled to more credit for years worked because West got more credit for their years worked.

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

It is and it even has a name - seniority. Sometimes that credit (just another word for "time value for work") is negative (a pilot with X years of longevity can't even hold the job he had as a new hire), sometimes it's neutral (a pilot with Y years of service can only hold the same job as he held as a new hire) and sometimes it's very positive (a pilot with Y years longevity can hold a lot better job than was possible as a new hire).

For proof, just look at the percentage of former furloughed East pilots that returned. Some of those discovered that they had more "credit" for less years at a different employer than they would have at US with more years.

It still boils down to the same thing - East is entitled to more credit for years worked because West got more credit for their years worked.

Jim

Seniority - according to ALPA's interpretation - is not credit for years worked, unless it is in-house. Then DOH is fine. In fact it is sacrosanct.

But in a merger, they view credit for years worked as a bargaining chip, which falls somewhere between career expectations and company net worth.

Bottom line is that a good merger policy is simple and straightforward enough so that arbitration and arbitrators would be totally unnecessary and obsolete - and it would deny management a wedge to be used to weaken labor.

UAL is beginning to reevaluate their previous philosophy regarding merger policy and seniority as we speak.

 

[Phoenix]

....

...you are accumulating jobs that rightfully belong to the west, ...

Since separate operations exist, then no one, by definition, has lost or gained a windfall (or even a zephyr) at the expense of the other pilot group.

 

[CapnCockroach]

TWA/Ozark set the standard in the early 1980s for ugly mergers.

http://cf.alpa.org/mec/aaa/docs/newmectoda...2/merge1200.pdf

 

[Phoenix]

UAL is beginning to reevaluate their previous philosophy regarding merger policy and seniority as we speak.

Imagine the fearful thought of Mesa and United merging based upon career expectations. I think United is dreaming of DOH, with an additional factor DLME... Date the Legacy Major was Established.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

http://cf.alpa.org/mec/aaa/docs/newmectoda...2/merge1200.pdf

Excellent information. I thought the TWA/Ozark thing was uglier than it was. I also didn't realize it was DOH. I didn't see what the C&R were, so maybe they were the issue. I was new to the aviation thing then, so apparently I didn't remember it quite the way it was. I admit, I'm not perfect.

Thanks for the great info.