US Pilot Labor Thread 10/19-10/26

[BottomFeeder]

Now that's quite a stretch, there, BF. Trying to score drama points again, I see.

Allow me to ask you something: do you actually have anything important to say? Or is this pretty much it?

Just curious, do you carry sticky notes around in your flight kit, too?

Not a stretch unless you call your "experienced" rant about a no flap landing.

do you have anything important to say... would that be what you would say to the Ground worker's spouse and kids after you killed their loved one with your blown tires at the gate?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Management has already said that they will accept whatever the pilots decide on this issue, with a few qualifications.

That's all I was really saying to ussnark. He claimed that management had no choice - how did he put it...."Dougie cannot decide whether to "accept" a list anymore than you can decide whether to "accept" a subpoena." I was merely saying that management didn't have to accept any particular list if USAPA's position is correct - the list resides in the contract and seniority is negotiable.

So thanks for agreeing with me, although it took a while to get to that point...

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

All very good points. But there is one factor no one, especially management, can ignore. If a merger in the future is truly their goal, and I believe it is, then these contracts would likely all have to be renegotiated. Therefore, the best thing for the company is to improve it's balance sheet through artificially low wages and benefits. Airline managers LOVE to have labor groups divided like the pilots are. They can pit each side against the other and wind up with a status quo, giving each side just a taste of what they want.

Wall Street loves low cost labor. Even if the company sucks. Screw your employees and you instantly become a Wall Street hero. America West had the lowest paid employees for years. You think that these guys are changing their position now? I doubt it.

True - but - it has been three years since the merger and we don't have a renegotiated contract yet. Also relevant is the question of who would be the dominant partner in any merger scenario.

 

[nostradamus]

Also relevant is the question of who would be the dominant partner in any merger scenario.

The alpha dogs.

 

[ussnark]

Ahhh...someone else who doesn't believe that the company has to sign the contract for it to be binding - USAPA can just dictate terms. How's that working out?

Jim

It would be helpful to actually quote the statements you take issue with, unless, like ALPA, you prefer to hide in the weeds, sniping away at people.

You, apparently, confuse the statements about "negotiating" a seniority list. The negotiating happens betwist the parties, east and west, not with the company. The negotiating takes place with a vote. A voted in list is then presented to the company. What is there about a list for management to negotiate?

In reality, management can stall all they want. Unfortunately for management, stalling without a public reason can tend to look bad for themselves.

BTW, why do you seemingly deliberately conflate the issues here? You benefited from DOH. Why do you then seemingly try to denigrate that issue? Should not someone with your same aspirations receive not less than what you received? I just flew with an IRO who is the youngest FO not furloughed, yet, under the "nic", at age 60, he will still be a reserve FO with 37 years seniority. I mean, are you nuts?

 

[BoeingBoy]

It would be helpful to actually quote the statements you take issue with

You'll notice that I did quote the statement that I take issue with - several times.

Jim

 

[ussnark]

That's all I was really saying to ussnark. He claimed that management had no choice - how did he put it...."Dougie cannot decide whether to "accept" a list anymore than you can decide whether to "accept" a subpoena." I was merely saying that management didn't have to accept any particular list if USAPA's position is correct - the list resides in the contract and seniority is negotiable.

You forget whom the "list" is negotiable with. Management is not included in that list.

Accepting a list has no partisan edge to it. It implies no slant to either direction. To avoid invoking a lawsuit, management cannot choose to accept or reject a proffered "list". The majority of pilots voted for DOH. That is reality. Trying to weasel out of that context seems quite demeaning on your part.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You forget whom the "list" is negotiable with. Management is not included in that list.

How about answering my initial questions then....

Does seniority reside in the contract? That's USAPA's position, how about yours?

Is the contract negotiated by the union and the company? That is also USAPA's position, how about yours.

Do the company and USAPA, subject to a ratification vote by the membership, have to accept the negotiated contract before it becomes valid? That certainly seems to be USAPA's position, how about yours?

Ergo, the company must accept a seniority list because the list resides in the contract - if the company and ALPA don't agree on all the contract items the list is just so much scrap paper until there is acceptance by both sides on all the contract items.

On the other hand, if you're right it should be safe to assume that the company accepted duly received the seniority list passed across the table by USAPA - the company has no choice according to you.

Of course, there's this little tidbit to contend with:

The seniority lists of America West pilots and US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance with ALPA Association Merger Policy and submitted to the Airline
Parties for acceptance.

Jim

 

[traderjake]

To avoid invoking a lawsuit, management cannot choose to accept or reject a proffered "list".

They can accept or reject a contract containing a DOH list.

The courts will stop any contract with a DOH list.

The majority can vote to put all female pilots at the bottom of the list but that isn't happening either.

 

[cleardirect]

<sigh>

What people at what table? Company people?

and, "chief pilot's office"? Are you kidding? Their credibility, as a group, ranks lower than snail slime. I wonder how well they laugh (belly laugh, smirk?) at dealing with naive and inexperienced pilots.

Once again. Dougie cannot decide whether to "accept" a list anymore than you can decide whether to "accept" a subpoena. Should he choose to involve himself in union matters that way, I would imagine he would also be involving himself in federal matters as well, something I can only think he might wish to avoid. If I were a board member, I would be horrified if the representative of the board, the CEO, did so, the legal consequences of which could be devastating not just to the corporation, but my "estate" as well.

Wherever do you get the idea that DP would place his estate on the line to get you something you did not earn, anyway?

I will try one more time. Your post is unclear what you were trying to say. So I asked the question
What??? Please clarify. What do you mean

“Should he choose to involve himself in union mattersâ€￾

What union matters are you talking about? What federal matters are you talking about? What devastation to the corporation or estate?

Could you clarify your statement with out the insults? What is the point you are trying to make?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I just flew with an IRO who is the youngest FO not furloughed, yet, under the "nic", at age 60, he will still be a reserve FO with 37 years seniority.

Nice yarn but doesn't ring quite true.....

If he was really an IRO, it raises two possibilities -

1 - that position was awarded on the last bid (08-04) and he has been through training for that position or he was able to hold onto that position in the last bid.

2 - he wasn't able to hold that position on the last bid but hasn't been trained to the new position awarded on the last bid.

If #1, he isn't the youngest non-furloughed East pilot (once all the furloughs take place), but rather 7 years older than the youngest. He is, however, within about 30 people and 7 years of being among the youngest.

If #2, he hasn't been trained to his bid 08-04 position yet and could be the youngest if awarded the Emb-190 F/O on the last bid.

Either way, when he reaches age 60 (assuming no disability causes him to leave the line early) he will be among the top 30 or so of East pilots. If West had zero retirements for the next 23 years (when he'll be 60 under #1 above) or 30 years (age 60 under #2 above) he would be about the middle of the list, assuming that US neither grows nor shrinks (or is even still in business). That's Captains territory if West has zero retirements during that entire time.

Of course, we all know that West will have retirements over the next 23 or 30 years. Taking those retirements into account, he'd be in the top 25% based on the Nic list (near widebody territory with the current fleet mix). Of course, depending on what the combined contract says about filling of vacancies, he may very well be able to bid reserve F/O on any of the equipment if he so chooses. But bidding something voluntarily is far different than being unable to hold anything better.

Sounds like he's bought into the "Nic will result in no more East F/O's making Captain" hysteria. Or you're embellishing.....

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

They can accept or reject a contract containing a DOH list.

True, but the list won't be the reason, since it meets the company's criteria, which they stated before the nic arbitration.

The courts will stop any contract with a DOH list.

Don't count on it, any more than courts would stop the Nic travesty.

The majority can vote to put all female pilots at the bottom of the list but that isn't happening either.

There are federal laws against it. DOH has been found too be a fair method of combining employee lists for decades. In fact, it is the predominant method used.

 

[nic4us]

True, but the list won't be the reason, since it meets the company's criteria, which they stated before the nic arbitration.



Don't count on it, any more than courts would stop the Nic travesty.



There are federal laws against it. DOH has been found too be a fair method of combining employee lists for decades. In fact, it is the predominant method used.

Oldie,

This is another halftruth the east keeps using. DOH is a method of integration, hardly ever used historically when combining two pilot groups. To illustrate this you name one straight DOH integration that occurred in the past 40 years outside of any involving US Air, and I will name three or more that did not.

Further, there are federal laws against the CBA discriminating against a minority group, as they are indeed obligated to work in their best intrest, not harm them because majority benefits if they do.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Oldie,

This is another halftruth the east keeps using. DOH is a method of integration, hardly ever used historically when combining two pilot groups. To illustrate this you name one straight DOH integration that occurred in the past 40 years outside of any involving US Air, and I will name three or more that did not.

Further, there are federal laws against the CBA discriminating against a minority group, as they are indeed obligated to work in their best intrest, not harm them because majority benefits if they do.

Since airline mergers somehow have historically had to deal with ALPA and it's screwed up sense of self, it's no wonder that the past mergers were all "eff'ed up". DOH is used in ALL industries, except the airlines which had self-serving ALPA to thank for being stupid. Now even ALPA, it seems, is looking at changing it's unworkable "non" merger policy. After 60+ years, it's about time.

DOH does not discriminate against anyone. That's why courts won't stop it. For the west guys to categorize themselves as a different group is stupid, and won't stand up in court, count on it. Show me anywhere in law that says you can't be discriminated against by race, religion, sex, or "geographic region". It's not there because it's not a separate category. DOH has been used to merge groups for centuries, and is the only intrinsically fair method. Even a 6 year old, which is what some of the folks here sound like, can understand it. They use a variation of it in elementary schools, where older kids get more priveleges than younger ones.

Since the fences and conditions which are proposed by USAPA protect everything each side brought to the table, it is obvious that the West group's goal is really to steal the East group's jobs. Why else would they not be in agreement on settling the issue?

Oh, to answer your question, Allegehny- Mohawk, USAir-PSA, and USAir-Piedmont. All were DOH with some fences which eventually went away. Of course, all used the lists as of the merger, so any inequities caused by past ALPA greed were not corrected, just like the USAPA list. The only reason the Trump merger did not go straight DOH was the disagreement over which DOH to use, EAL or Trump, since a lot of folks came to USAir from EAL before the merger and would have lost comparative seniority. I'm not agreeing with that sentiment, just remembering the discussion.

 

[tazz]

DOH has been used to merge groups for centuries, and is the only intrinsically fair method.

What could I possibly say that wouldn't get me kicked off this board?????