US Pilot Labor Thread 10/19-10/26

[Piedmont1984]

As we've seen with the past several posts, the problem of seniority list resolution is extreemely complicated. And the differences between relative groups could not have been more vast than in this AAA - AWA merge.

Given the background surrounding this situation, how incomprehensible is it that anybody truely believes such a simplistic solution as pure date of hire would be remotely fair to all or even fair, period?

Furthermore, it is obvious that if either side were given the power to impose its will upon another that the short side is going to get shafted. This is exactly what we see this happening now with the usapa experiment.

And these are the primary reasons for the arbitration which took place - the one that BOTH sides agreed to.

When this matter gets heard in court (and it will), these will be primary points of discussion. The east's attempt to justify their DOH stance will be difficult to justify when they face answering to a third party. When the time finally arrives for the east to sink or swim with DOH, I suspect there will be a mad rush to the lifeboats.

The devil is in the details. That is why DOH - tried and true - is a good starting point, and then you put together a robust and durable set of conditions and restrictions. Nothing simplistic about it. A fair and enduring set of C&R's requires much work and cooperation and participation from both sides. But since the west has alienated itself from the process, the C&R's were formulated without their input.

Both sides may very well be dissappointed with how things develop in court. The time value of legal proceedings.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Stapling the east would be a shaft as would DOH be a shaft for the west. Relative seniority, the west's position, is fair. That's how Nicolau saw it. That's how the courts will see it.

Wow! You have it all figured out! We've been wasting our time here because you already have decreed "how the courts will see it."

That's it, guys and gals. Discussion over. We now know how the courts will see it. No further questions. Someone send tazz's decision to the judge, please, so that he can get out of that hot robe and on to the golf course.

Who would have thought it would be so cut and dry?

 

[tazz]

Wow! You have it all figured out! We've been wasting our time here because you already have decreed "how the courts will see it."

That's it, guys and gals. Discussion over. We now know how the courts will see it. No further questions. Someone send tazz's decision to the judge, please, so that he can get out of that hot robe and on to the golf course.

Who would have thought it would be so cut and dry?

I'm glad you're finally coming around.

 

[tazz]

ALPA had no merger policy. It changed every merger. It STILL doesn't have one. Using outside arbitrators means you don't have a policy yourself.

The East guys, I guess, expected a reasonable, intelligent man. They got an old, senile man with some kind point to make.

They weren't MY actions, so you can just get over that statement.

Doesn't matter. Nic is dead.

Wrong.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Wrong.

Wanna bet your career on that?

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Wanna bet your career on that?

OBG -

I believe we all are doing exactly that - except the top 517, that is.

Next challenge, please.....

 

[nic4us]

one way or another this will all be settled in time. Both sides have strong feelings on what will happen, but one thing for sure no one really knows. All eyes are on this one. If for example the court rules the nic stands, I don't feel they can dicate how it has to be implemented. In most mergers when dealing with pilots on furlough, I don't think there has been pilots furloughed after 14 years of active service. In past mergers I think furloughed guys had a year or two of service, so being placed on the bottom wasn't a big hit. Alot has been said by the west that if you were 70% before you are still 70% now, so whats the big deal? The big deal for me is that if I was 60-70% before, I had all the opportunity to move up due to the large attritation on the east. With the NIC, all that has been stripped in most cases, and guys with alot less time in service will capture that attrition that didn't even exsist or them. I would remain not only in the right seat but be back on reserve for a long time. This is where the old man and ALPA dropped the ball. I also feel alot of the west f/o's think this that this would be ok. I wonder what their feelings would be if the nic stands, but east pilots capture all of their (east) attrition, and the west captures theirs.

Cubfan and everyone else,

I recently posted that the east has nothing that intrest me, however after further consideration I must admit this to not be entirely true. The east along with the West has a potential to be something greater than either could have been without the other. I would like to share in this potential if and when it is realized, however DOH just wipes that away for me. Cubfan says that at 60% before and still at 60% he no longer will capture the attrition the east brought. I say this is bs. Although he would share this attrition, he will still capture the lions share of it and the wests attrition which while smaller overall is not that much less on a percentage basis,and contributes to the total. Further a large amount of east attrition is junior to west pilots and benefits them none, Cubfan is on the fast track in gains but claims to be stripped, again bs. While we are talking percentage, A west pilot at 25% on the west list moved to about 30% on the NIC. With DOH they go to 80+% and no amount of attrition, growth, C&Rs can regain that loss. Now with DOH, Cubfan at 60% gets to throw 90-100% of the west beneath him, he immediately moves up to the 30-40% range and gets it all.

In a nutshell, the West would be fine with the east realizing the benefit of their greater attrition, it is going to happen anyway with the NIC in place.

 

[Piedmont1984]

File this away, should we ever decide to try one more time to reach a compromise solution. Pretend both sides decide it will take too long and cost too much to await a court mandated solution - and that contract negotiations are at a stalemate. It could happen. Call it a Zee River meeting.

Start at the bottom of the list - instead of the top - and work up by straight LOS until the DOH disparity is reduced to an agreed upon amount. Let's say 4 or 5 years for the sake of argument. FYI, I can live with the 4.5 year hit I received from Nic. From that point to the top of the list - relative position, or weighted slotting, or my personal favorite, reverse alphabetical order.

Sprinkle with some C&R's, call it a "DOH" based list (so the C&BL's don't need to be changed), and it's ready for ratification.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So now you're advocating using flying time as the standard?

Not at all, if you'll bother to read my post. Just pointing out that experience is not and never has been the basis for seniority.

There are reasons are why the ONLY number that is truly comparable is DOH. It doesn't change, yet is still of indicator of experience as measured by time on the job.

So DOH, like seniority, never changes - is that your position? I guess that I've been misinformed all these years. I thought that when a pilot got hired he was at the bottom of the seniority list (possibly some classmates below him) then moved up the list as the years passed (with some possible blips along the way if furloughed), hopefully retiring somewhere near the top of the list. Overall, he gained seniority as the years passed. How could I have been so wrong and not recognized that seniority is a constant...

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim

Refresh my memory, I think you used the "experience/senior" tag to promote the age 60 change. Could you please explain why you thought it was different for 60.

I don't think it was me since I was never a promoter of the change in retirement age. In fact, I was dead set against the change.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Not at all, if you'll bother to read my post. Just pointing out that experience is not and never has been the basis for seniority.



So DOH, like seniority, never changes - is that your position? I guess that I've been misinformed all these years. I thought that when a pilot got hired he was at the bottom of the seniority list (possibly some classmates below him) then moved up the list as the years passed (with some possible blips along the way if furloughed), hopefully retiring somewhere near the top of the list. Overall, he gained seniority as the years passed. How could I have been so wrong and not recognized that seniority is a constant...

Jim

You obviously misread my statement. I meant that the only thing comparable BETWEEN THE GROUPS is DOH. I never said nor meant that seniority within the group doesn't change. Unless, of course, you belong to ALPA, in which case the meaning of your service can be changed at will to suit their goals. In ALPA, you can work for a company for 20 years and be placed behind someone that was hired less than three years ago in seniority.

Glad ALPA and their stupid ideas are gone for good! I only hope other carriers come to their senses soon, as well.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I meant that the only thing comparable BETWEEN THE GROUPS is DOH.

Nope. Members of both groups share something else - a position on a seniority list. In other words, members of each group have something measurable besides DOH, something that actually measures their seniority instead of just measuring how long they held on hoping for higher seniority someday.

I know it's strange to think that combining seniority lists might actually involve considering seniority when DOH/LOS would benefit the East so much more, but it's a strange world.

Jim

 

[nostradamus]

Cubfan and everyone else,
Cubfan says that at 60% before and still at 60% he no longer will capture the attrition the east brought. I say this is bs. Although he would share this attrition, he will still capture the lions share of it and the wests attrition which while smaller overall is not that much less on a percentage basis,and contributes to the total. Further a large amount of east attrition is junior to west pilots and benefits them none, Cubfan is on the fast track in gains but claims to be stripped, again bs. While we are talking percentage, A west pilot at 25% on the west list moved to about 30% on the NIC. With DOH they go to 80+% and no amount of attrition, growth, C&Rs can regain that loss. Now with DOH, Cubfan at 60% gets to throw 90-100% of the west beneath him, he immediately moves up to the 30-40% range and gets it all.

In a nutshell, the West would be fine with the east realizing the benefit of their greater attrition, it is going to happen anyway with the NIC in place.

US Airways MEC Presentation to ALPA Executive Council May 2007, click here.

 

[sharktooth]

Nope. Members of both groups share something else - a position on a seniority list. In other words, members of each group have something measurable besides DOH, something that actually measures their seniority instead of just measuring how long they held on hoping for higher seniority someday.

and, yet again, you ignore experience, something you profited by.

DOH eliminates "hoping". It lays out ones career, shorn of wishful thinking, etc.

 

[cleardirect]

US Airways MEC Presentation to ALPA Executive Council May 2007, click here.

WOW! Look at the pretty colors.

Recycled trash. ALPA national looked at it and disregarded it. This was essentially the east presentation to Nicolau. He looked at it and disregarded it.

Just so much emotional hysteria. Not worth the time to write or the electrons to send it.