US Pilot labor thread 10/12-10/18

[HighbutFast]

This speculation about numbers is fascinating, but not very illuminating or relevent as it's all speculation. The dialogue questioning the LM-2 will be ended as soon as the next required filing comes out. The actual June 30 numbers are what they were at the time....four months later the numbers changed. There is NO compelling reason for USAPA to generate any off-scheduled report to appease some West pilots who "want to know..."

Who cares?...you will find out when you find out...like everything else.

By that same token, all the chest-pumping about this is a waste of energy....members' come in several flavors, good-standing, bad standing, dues objectors...etc...you will all get your answers when you get your answers...if you're not a member, you may never get your answer..you'll have to wait your turn.

250 members. 270 members...400 members..all guesses and mirrors...there's only a few factual numbers worth mentioning: USAPA won by approximately 400-500 numbers...the membership has grown significantly since that time.

End of story.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Hmmm...weren't you denying you were a USAirways pilot a few weeks ago? And an International Captain at that, by George.

I never denied it. I had just never affirmed it. And, up until that point, everything said about me was based on assumptions.

 

[Megasnoop]

From USAPAWATCH.COM:
below are the membership numbers from the Department of Labor.
Total Members = 2,524
Total Agency Fee Payers = 2,537
Yup, the numbers don’t lie. USAPA has more non-members than members!

Those were the numbers, all right! The numbers that were submitted to the DOL in early June and reported by DOL on June 30! This kind of garbage continues to fan the flames with mistruths. The more any of us bring that up, the more the tigers of this chat board ignore the facts. They dont want to hear the truth.

From USAPAWATCH.COM:
Mr. Bradford, who are the PHX and LAS domicile reps?

USAPAWATCH, why ask the question when you already know the answer? I still have at least one friend out west who told me the answer. Hes now on his way overseas before the next round of downgrades nail him. Three west pilots who voted against USAPA expressed interest in being West reps. They all had past west ALPO experience. When word leaked out, they started getting obscene/harassing phone calls and confrontations in the crew room. It got so bad, one of them had to file a complaint with the company over a hostile work environment. Thats why there no reps in PHX or LAS. Anyone who wants to get involved to represent their fellow pilots out west gets beaten down. Over to you, Tiger. Say it didnt happen. Snooper

 

[machtuck]

Rhetorical BS..Snoop. Just like all the west BS. They don't want a "real" answer..they already know their "real answer"....they (the west) don't want any reps...the ones who volunteered were accosted illegally and harrassed with violence.

I submit that the union should appoint a "West Rep" and take care of union business. Like Now.

Then let the west members follow their remedies.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Tiger, you wrote: “This is a false statement as objector/challengers cannot be members of the union.â€￾

There is no reporting category called “objectors.â€￾ Lets see one shred of DOL-language that says differnt. You ridicule, making things up and expect us to ignore it. Whether a west member joined with reservations or not is immaterial. They joined.

Mega,
With all due respect it appears you do not understand what an objector/challenger is. I am one and I can tell you it is my right under RLA to formally object and therefore I cannot be listed as a member. I am not talking about those who sent in membership applications with their "statements/demands" in this discussion. I would encourage you to discover this truth for yourself. USAPA put out a public statement claiming 600+ new members were voted into the union from the west. If any of these were individuals such as myself then that statement is patently untrue, and therefore makes your claim of 1000+ new members in a 3 month period seriously doubtful. Not making it up snoop. Learn for yourself.

 

[Megasnoop]

Mega,
With all due respect it appears you do not understand what an objector/challenger is. I am one and I can tell you it is my right under RLA to formally object and therefore I cannot be listed as a member. I am not talking about those who sent in membership applications with their "statements/demands" in this discussion. I would encourage you to discover this truth for yourself. USAPA put out a public statement claiming 600+ new members were voted into the union from the west. If any of these were individuals such as myself then that statement is patently untrue, and therefore makes your claim of 1000+ new members in a 3 month period seriously doubtful. Not making it up snoop. Learn for yourself.

There you go again, not answering my latest question about why no West reps. With the harassement you dish out why would anyone want to do it?
I understand exactly what an objector is. I was an ALPO objector for years. Under the RLA there no status as member-objector/challenger. Show me in the RLA where Im wrong. http://www.nmb.gov/documents/rla.html Your either in the union or your not. 600+ of you applied and all were accepted. Any reservations or restrictions you put in your applications are meaningless. Rejecting any of youfor any reason would get you off the hook for even paying agency fee. The next DOL report will include all 600 of you. Further proof see Teachers Vs Hudson, Conrad Vs IAM, Lehnert Vs Ferris, Ellis Vs Railway and Steamship Clerks. They spell all spell out "objectors" as non-members. If you dont want to be members, then resign. Youll still have to pay agency fee. Thats in the RLA as well. snooper

 

[cleardirect]

From USAPAWATCH.COM:
below are the membership numbers from the Department of Labor.
Total Members = 2,524
Total Agency Fee Payers = 2,537
Yup, the numbers don’t lie. USAPA has more non-members than members!

Those were the numbers, all right! The numbers that were submitted to the DOL in early June and reported by DOL on June 30! This kind of garbage continues to fan the flames with mistruths. The more any of us bring that up, the more the tigers of this chat board ignore the facts. They dont want to hear the truth.

Not quite snoop, not quite. Missed by that much. Those are the numbers reported on September 27, 2008 covering the period from 7/1/2007 to 6/30/2008.

Just happen to have the report in my hot hand.

Now why do you suppose that USAPA would file a report in September almost three months after June but not include all of the new members flooding into USAPA?

Another interesting tidbit is the schedule 15. Under Seham Seham Meltx, Peterson. Federal court proceedings. $49,484. That was before the July, August and September bills came in from the malicious law suit against 18 individuals from the west. Any guess what that foolish little mistake is going to cost?

 

[Tiger 1050]

Snoop,

There you go again, not answering my latest question about why no West reps. With the harassement you dish out why would anyone want to do it?

No one wants to be reps because the real question is why would you participate in an organization that is hell bent on wrecking you career?

Case in point: Why has USAPA filed a Motion To Dismiss an injunction designed to keep more senior pilots onboard instead of standing in the furlough line while junior pilots continue to work? I thought seniority is the very foundation USAPA stands on? Don't claim the TA has anything to do with it. Let the company play that game. USAPA's true colors are shining through to the west and we will fight everyday of every week of every month of every year until USAPA is gone

I understand exactly what an objector is. I was an ALPO objector for years. Under the RLA there no status as member-objector/challenger. Show me in the RLA where Im wrong. http://www.nmb.gov/documents/rla.html Your either in the union or your not.

This is the point I was trying to make. We agree here 100%. I and the other objectors are not members.

600+ of you applied and all were accepted. Any reservations or restrictions you put in your applications are meaningless.

This is where we should be in our discussion. The 600+ "accepted" members from the west. Are they objectors? Or are they those who filled out membership applications with the aforementioned conditions. Which by the way I agree is meaningless.

They spell all spell out "objectors" as non-members.

That is the point I was trying to make. I apologize if I was unclear. However I do dispute the numbers still. How many of the 1000 you claim are actually objectors and therefore not members?

 

[Flyz4food]

Snoop,



Why do you consider this harassment? We are simply sharing different opinions. And for the record I would not harass someone who wished to participate in USAPA. I have a friend who is on the Dues Collection Committee and we just agree to disagree.



This is the point I was trying to make. We agree here 100%. I and the other objectors are not members.



This is where we should be in our discussion. The 600+ "accepted" members from the west. Are they objectors? Or are they those who filled out membership applications with the aforementioned conditions. Which by the way I agree is meaningless.



That is the point I was trying to make. I apologize if I was unclear. However I do dispute the numbers still. How many of the 1000 you claim are actually objectors and therefore not members?

How many of the 600+ from the west were accepted as "members" contrary to procedures specified in the Constitution and Bylaws?

 

[fodase]

http://web.me.com/cactus/underground/podca...OH_is_DOA_.html

 

[Megasnoop]

Ah, what does Parker know:

US Airways' CEO: Merger Saved Jobs
Ted Reed, TheStreet.com Staff ReporterTheStreet.com
CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Three years after the merger between US Airways(LCC:NYSE) and America West, it seems clear the deal was an overall success.

Still, the inability to reach an agreement on pilot seniority stands out as a glaring shortcoming.
Without a merger, "neither the standalone US Airways nor the standalone America West could have managed through," said CEO Doug Parker, in a recent interview. "Both these airlines would be nonexistent had they not merged. But merged, we saved 35,000 jobs."

At the same time, "pilot seniority is not something we contemplated we'd still be dealing with three years later", Parker admitted.

The bitter seniority conflict follows an arbitrator's ruling that was deemed unacceptable by most pilots from the former US Airways. It has been accompanied by an April election that ousted the Air Line Pilots Association after 57 years, and a series of lawsuits.

On the positive side, "our pilots are keeping this between themselves," Parker said. "We've had no customers see this affect them in the last three years. People read about it, but it hasn't affected our operations one bit."

Meanwhile, Charlotte and Philadelphia, the two hubs operated by the former US Airways, have been the strongest links in the new carrier. They have suffered minimal capacity reduction despite cuts of about 25% in Las Vegas and 10% in Phoenix, which has come as the industry moves to reduce total capacity by an unprecedented 10% in response to higher fuel prices.

"Charlotte has proven to be more resilient than other parts of the country," Parker said, even taking into account the merger of Wachovia(WB:NYSE) Charlotte's second-largest employer, into Wells Fargo(WFC:NYSE).

"US Airways' position in Charlotte is not dependent on Wachovia being as big as it is here," Parker said. "Charlotte is much bigger and stronger than that."

Philadelphia, long a trouble spot for the airline, has improved. In terms of departures within 14 minutes of the scheduled time, US Airways' Philadelphia operation showed a 25-point improvement, to 76.5%, from the first half of 2007 to the first half of 2008. "The turnaround in US Airways has been stunning within itself," Parker said. "The turnaround in Philadelphia is even more dramatic."

US Airways emerged from bankruptcy in September 2005 after a merger with America West. The new company quickly began to make money due to capacity declines throughout the industry and strong demand.

The merger's success led Parker to pursue both Delta(DAL:NYSE) and UAL(UAUA:NYSE). Those efforts failed, although some speculate that UAL, the parent of United, might become interested were US Airways to resolve its pilot seniority issues. Meanwhile, Delta plans to combine with Northwest(NWA:NYSE).

For its part, the US Airline Pilots Association, which replaced ALPA at US Airways, recently marked the third anniversary of the tie-up, saying in prepared statement that "the airline is entangled in labor disputes, lawsuits and customer service issues, and management so far seems incapable of getting the merger completed."

As for merging pilot groups, said USAPA president Stephen Bradford, "What the Delta and Northwest managements did in just a couple of months, US Airways management hasn't been able to do in over three years."

Aviation consultant George Hamlin says the carrier could gain efficiencies if pilot lists and contracts are merged. But, if unresolved, the pilot conflict could encumber US Airways to the extent that it comes to resemble Eastern Airlines in its final days, Hamlin says.
"If you put parochial interests first, last and only, you could destroy your employer," he says. "But so far, you have to count this as a success, because the airline is still here."

 

[nostradamus]

For the west pilots, the video you should watch is on the hub. Listen to Doug Parker. The last two PHX meetings he made it perfectly clear who is your union and which side of the coast is making money.

Whine about USAPA, make fun of the age of the pilots and what you think is the size of their brain matter all you want. Wait for the court to decide in 10 years. Bottom line 10 percent of your pilots and counting are on the street. Your captains are joining, as the west pilots put it, the f/o club for life.

Is this strategy working? Cute videos, nice lanyards, cool alpa borrowed FUD (fear uncertainty doubt), nice history lessons about Leonidas and Columbus.


Separate ops until a contract, fact of life.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Aw come on, Nosty - who really cares what DP says in his little bag lunches? Did you cringe much when DP lit into that short little loudmouth who was going on and on about captain's authority? That was fun to watch, eh?

Sure, DP is legally bound to recognize usap. So he does mention them from time to time during the tea parties. Whoo hoo....!! Does that mean he has to truely negotiate with them? Officially, yes - but only when he is good and ready and when the joint operations make economic sense to him and to the bottom line. Did you guys ever think about that last spring during the voting period? Nope, y'all were locked on to that seniority thing ("my seniority isn't for sale" - I love that one) - and you were still smarting from the loss of your million dollar pensions. Well, that is still gone, and you are still working beneath a bankruptcy spawned contract.

So, if you eastyz would finally accept what you commited to with the seniority arbitration, we jointly would be able to pressure the 9th floor into some movement towards a productive contract for all pilots. There are many of us here who would gladly and willingly work with you were it not for one thing. But we simply cannot be part of a union that places 80% of our pilot group below every single eastie.

You can't seem face the fact the fact that the west DOES hold the higher ground in this standoff. Usap is truely founded upon the bankrupt and immoral principles of tyranny of the majority. Every other pilot in this industry recognizes this. Keep those blinders on, keep rationalizing LOA 93. I am happy that it works as well as it does for ya.

The furloughs are a painful sting we are feeling now. But that can change in a heartbeat - or the drop of a gavel.

We are as patient as you, and definitely more persistant. Do the eastyz collectively have the staying power to see this to the end? Nope. Nor do you have the time. I predict usap will begin to crumble very soon. All those usap cards and yellow lanyards will be mere dust in the wind........

 

[nostradamus]

All those usap cards and yellow lanyards will be mere dust in the wind........

Sir,

You claimed to be a war hero on this board, you fabricated your story. That is against the law. You have no relevance in a civilized society and do not deserve my correspondence.

 

[nycbusdriver]

...although some speculate that UAL, the parent of United, might become interested were US Airways to resolve its pilot seniority issues. Meanwhile, Delta plans to combine with Northwest(NWA:NYSE)...

If that's the case, then we need to keep this seniority issue unresolved forever, if for no other reason than to keep UAL away.