US Pilots Labor Topic-Aug 1-5

[HPDriver]

Swear on your children;s lives that what you wrote is truthful. Cleary being investigated by the DOL.....yea....riiiiiiggggghhhhtttttt

You seem to be overly dependent on this board for your union info. Why?

And I'm still waiting on a response to the following questions:


Why has USAPA expedited the appeal when all of you on this board were talking about delay?

Why the disconnect?

 

[EastUS]

Did any of you have the expectation to fly from PHX to Jamica?

Well...did YOU? :blink:

 

[nic4us]

You may need USAPA protection when that FO directly turns you into the FAA and/or the New York Times..... I'd get those dues paid up.

One thing experience gets you is the ability to control the cockpit from any seat. Confront the person and, believe me, the end result will be a Nicholau awardee who will be happy to take himself off a trip. I've seen similar happen in PIT, heard about it at CAL post-strike and fully expect to hear about it happening in PHX if the "award" is imposed. Fully expect that you will be ganged up upon.

Be very, very careful what you wish for because whenever I talk with FOs about Solomon's split baby, payback a "nickel at a time" keeps coming to mind.

Good luck with your naive thinking.....

CaptainJack,

As I had given myself a voluntary 2 week hiatus from this board I had missed this little gem until I found it quoted on another website. Did not bother reading all of last weeks thread to see how west posters reacted, but it touched a nerve and I have some comments.

First, I am not paying dues to an association of welching, decietful, untrustworthy crybabies who's purpose is to steal from me and do me harm.

Second, another thing experience gets you is how to handle a confrontation of the sort you refer. So go for it, because I too can control the flightdeck from any seat, but being in command gives me a little trump card with which you are apparently not familiar, and I am not about to share with someone making threats. So if it turns into a defecating in the flight bag urinating in the coffee match, so be it, you will only harm yourself as you attempt to harm others.

My naivety comes from being in this situation before, not hearing about it happening at another airline or crew base. So go ahead gang up on me, turn me into the FAA, report me to the media, and perhaps you can get a job selling cars at the Mitsubishi dealership with the last idiot know it all who tried that stunt. To this day I feel sorry for that jerk.

Or, we can work together, your choice.

 

[HPDriver]

Thank you for making the same point again.

So will the east agree to this position? Will usapa go to the company and refuse to let the east fly the flights from PHX to Jamica just announced? As you say you only wanted what you brought to the merger. Did any of you have the expectation to fly from PHX to Jamica?

How about backing that attitude up with a little action and integrity. All east pilots refuse to do the flights. Demand the west crews do it.

PHX is now outperforming the east hubs.

LGA is the most unprofitable hub.

Hmmmmmm.

The west has no EOW A319's, but I'm sure once the route takes off we'll move west 757's into that route.

 

[EastUS]

Somewhere along the line reality must be introduced into the picture and emotion pushed aside.

Many believe that the 9th Circuit will overturn or remand and give a second chance. While nothing in life is certain it seems a slim possibility. Why? Because the way the argument has been shaped.

We shall see shortly, when the Appellant’s brief to the 9th Circuit is filed, the arguments brought forth to counter “This is over folksâ€￾. It's not funny and it's definately sad.

As to "reality" being "introduced": The reality is that the nic hasn't been implemented, and currently has zero effects other than the production of internecine strife. Would you argue that such is not truly the current and actual reality?

Indeed = We shall see.

What I can not fathom is WHY any east pilot would even consider folding up on the nic at present. With the legal outcomes yet unknown, and with the potential for very significant gains via the LOA resolutions to come....well:

What person, in their even remotely right mind, would see ANY benefits to caving in and bending over for the nic obscenity at the present time? What possible and actually rational basis would there be for doing so?

When I ask: "What possible and actually rational basis would there be for doing so?" I mean that in context to group benefit, and not that of any/all alpa devotees that are clearly wishing to gin up "the good old days" for themselves personally, and care nothing whatsoever about their 'fellow pilots"..ie, the ones that actually do the line flying.

So far...there's been absolutely ZERO viable, or even half-azzed attempts at answering the basic, seemingly very reasonable question = "What person, in their even remotely right mind, would see ANY benefits to caving in and bending over for the nic obscenity at the present time? What possible and actually rational basis would there be for doing so?"

I'm all ears......?

 

[Megasnoop]

QUOTE (Barrister @ Aug 5 2009, 11:14 AM)
Swear on your children;s lives that what you wrote is truthful. Cleary being investigated by the DOL.....yea....riiiiiiggggghhhhtttttt

🙂

You guys make me smile. You do not have to believe me. Do a little investigation on your own. Call Mike, call your rep.
DOL is going to climb up usapa's back side.
Why would I make up something so easy to prove or disprove.
Enjoy the exam.

Barrister, the TRUTH wont make Cleardirect smile. Another attempt at smear. Yes, the DOL is conducting an investigation. Yes, they interviewed Cleary in CLT. Here the rest of the story.

Remember David Schoppaul, the "goat guy?" He's the one who wrote the anti-USAPA You-Tube piece with the goats, or were they sheep? Dave wasnt allowed to run for USAPA president the 1st vote last April. He went to the USAPA Appeals Board and they ruled he could run, despite his rhetoric to destroy our union. So he ran against Cleary in the rerun and lost 1800+ to 180. After losing, Schoppaul filed complaint with DOL. This was DOL's investigation.

Schoppaul has no case. DOL investigator just doing her job, filling in the squares. Why no case? DOL rules require 2 elements to substantiate a violation. 1) wrongdoing 2) outcome determinative. The first is a joke. The 2nd? Schoppaul lost by over 10 to 1!

Complaint filed has to be investigated, even if no merit. This is a non-issue. Don't take my word for it or our legal counsel. We went to John Heaney, 25-year OLMS investigator for the DOL. He now advises for Ballot Point to keep unions from making election mistakes.

All pitchers are liars or crybabies. Yogi Berra

 

[700UW]

First of all LGA is not a hub and something like 9 west 757s are going back to the lessor this year, only 757s the company plans on keeping is ETOPS airplanes.

 

[hp_fa]

I read the transcript and cited case law from the judges decision and the case law cited by USAPA. Judge Wake took a very narrow view of everything he cited. In my opinion, if he had truely wanted to protect himself from an appeal, he would have allowed all evidenciary findings.

Hi Spike.

I disagree with your conclusion and here is why.

Early on in the case Judge Wake made it clear that the trial would not be a re-hashing of Nicolau. As it was the jury became more than casually acquainted with the Nicolau Award and some of the procedures that went into the Nicolau panel arriving at that award. Based on having been there and watched the interplay, body language and other things I believe that if Judge Wake had it to do again he would be more restrictive in what the jury hears and sees. He had granted the parties leeway to make their case, with more of that leeway having gone to USAPA, but once some of those topics were opened he could not then unring the bell.

From my perspective USAPA's counsel was doing what I expected, throwing up as much stuff as they could and hope it sticks, or in this case hope to confuse the jury. Also, remember that the trial was to only run two weeks, and that included the bench trial time. The trial came in just slightly under that time frame and you can't just keeping adding stuff and effectively lose control of your judicial calendar. The parties knew how much time they had and how they chose to spend their time (including arguments to the bench) was their affair. So it was a combination of things that caused the trial to be what it was, but I disagree that he was narrow. He was fairly inclusive, but not allowing testimony that was plainly beyond what he had determined to be the scope of the liability-only stage of the lawsuit.

 

[Megasnoop]

"...according(sic) to HP-FA...." Not court documents, not any other source, just HP-FA say so. Right.

hp says a lot of things. Like the appeal would take 18 months, 2 years, 3 years. A bit off on those learned predictions. Oh, it was expedited because AOL didn't protest? Spare me. Even without a protest, Appeals courts seldom take expedited appeals. Why ours? 2 good reasons, 1st, ripeness. 2 courts ruling differntly on whether the case was ripe. 2nd, the 9th legal screeners most likely saw that letting this appeal run the normal course deprived union members the right to negotiate a timely contract. 9th Circuit isnt exactly anti-union.

Time was always working against the west. This expedited appeal makes it even worse.

FPL? Did you mention that?
You have two "might be" violations there. Tossing those misrepresentations around just to muddy the water. You have not changed much since your "done deal" days.
You, apparently, have not read the Constitution. The representatives do the voting on such issues.

CaptainJack, this nonsense is all hes got. Slandering our union workers, claiming their gaming the system. Nothing comes close to LOA95 gravey-train, signed the same day as the MEC approved the T/A, September 23, 2005, slipped in without any notice. Some openness, huh? That allowed ALL the FPLers (twice as many as USAPA has) to knock down max monthly cap pay. Funny how ALL our former ALPA officers got paid line cap when they could only hold reserve. That was the scam, 20% pay increase, bid the highest paying piece of equipment/seat you could hold as reserve and get paid max line cap. Union business did have its perks.

"All pitchers are liars and crybabies." Yogi Berra

 

[Barrister]

You seem to be overly dependent on this board for your union info. Why?

And I'm still waiting on a response to the following questions:


Why has USAPA expedited the appeal when all of you on this board were talking about delay?

Why the disconnect?

Delays inherent in the systen for starters, not intentional delay.....but voting for a joint contract that contains NIC.......Intentionally delaying a joint contract containing NIC by voting no? that would be a yes!!

VNIIMC and no I would not care if this site were shut down. It is only good for typing skill practice, which I need!!

 

[EastUS]

PHX is now outperforming the east hubs.

Hmmmmmm.

The west has no EOW A319's, but I'm sure once the route takes off we'll move west 757's into that route.

"Hmmmmmm." Indeed 🙄

 

[Barrister]

QUOTE (Barrister @ Aug 5 2009, 11:14 AM)
Swear on your children;s lives that what you wrote is truthful. Cleary being investigated by the DOL.....yea....riiiiiiggggghhhhtttttt



Barrister, the TRUTH wont make Cleardirect smile. Another attempt at smear. Yes, the DOL is conducting an investigation. Yes, they interviewed Cleary in CLT. Here the rest of the story.

Remember David Schoppaul, the "goat guy?" He's the one who wrote the anti-USAPA You-Tube piece with the goats, or were they sheep? Dave wasnt allowed to run for USAPA president the 1st vote last April. He went to the USAPA Appeals Board and they ruled he could run, despite his rhetoric to destroy our union. So he ran against Cleary in the rerun and lost 1800+ to 180. After losing, Schoppaul filed complaint with DOL. This was DOL's investigation.

Schoppaul has no case. DOL investigator just doing her job, filling in the squares. Why no case? DOL rules require 2 elements to substantiate a violation. 1) wrongdoing 2) outcome determinative. The first is a joke. The 2nd? Schoppaul lost by over 10 to 1!

Complaint filed has to be investigated, even if no merit. This is a non-issue. Don't take my word for it or our legal counsel. We went to John Heaney, 25-year OLMS investigator for the DOL. He now advises for Ballot Point to keep unions from making election mistakes.

All pitchers are liars or crybabies. Yogi Berra

Thank you Snoop, so technically I was wrong, there is an investigation just not in the tone or substance that the writer wants us to believe.

 

[Hawkhunter]

Thank you for making the same point again.

So will the east agree to this position? Will usapa go to the company and refuse to let the east fly the flights from PHX to Jamica just announced? As you say you only wanted what you brought to the merger. Did any of you have the expectation to fly from PHX to Jamica?

How about backing that attitude up with a little action and integrity. All east pilots refuse to do the flights. Demand the west crews do it.

Well since many of you have proudly sphewed that you would cross any picket line out East I would say, no. However, if you guys put in writing that you will never fly our International routes then my West brother full of integrity and attitude you have a deal.

 

[EastUS]

Nothing comes close to LOA95 gravey-train, signed the same day as the MEC approved the T/A, September 23, 2005, slipped in without any notice. Some openness, huh? That allowed ALL the FPLers (twice as many as USAPA has) to knock down max monthly cap pay. Funny how ALL our former ALPA officers got paid line cap when they could only hold reserve. That was the scam, 20% pay increase, bid the highest paying piece of equipment/seat you could hold as reserve and get paid max line cap. Union business did have its perks.

"All pitchers are liars and crybabies." Yogi Berra

Alpa "business" did indeed have it's perks. Small wonder that those who felt themselves fully enititled to them back then are so eager to regain them now...whatever the cost to the line pilots they supposedly "represented"

ANY examination of alpa's always akin to peeling an onion. The more layers one removes...the more it stinks, and the more one's eyes water.

 

[cleardirect]

QUOTE (Barrister @ Aug 5 2009, 11:14 AM)
Swear on your children;s lives that what you wrote is truthful. Cleary being investigated by the DOL.....yea....riiiiiiggggghhhhtttttt



Barrister, the TRUTH wont make Cleardirect smile. Another attempt at smear. Yes, the DOL is conducting an investigation. Yes, they interviewed Cleary in CLT. Here the rest of the story.

Remember David Schoppaul, the "goat guy?" He's the one who wrote the anti-USAPA You-Tube piece with the goats, or were they sheep? Dave wasnt allowed to run for USAPA president the 1st vote last April. He went to the USAPA Appeals Board and they ruled he could run, despite his rhetoric to destroy our union. So he ran against Cleary in the rerun and lost 1800+ to 180. After losing, Schoppaul filed complaint with DOL. This was DOL's investigation.

Schoppaul has no case. DOL investigator just doing her job, filling in the squares. Why no case? DOL rules require 2 elements to substantiate a violation. 1) wrongdoing 2) outcome determinative. The first is a joke. The 2nd? Schoppaul lost by over 10 to 1!

Complaint filed has to be investigated, even if no merit. This is a non-issue. Don't take my word for it or our legal counsel. We went to John Heaney, 25-year OLMS investigator for the DOL. He now advises for Ballot Point to keep unions from making election mistakes.

All pitchers are liars or crybabies. Yogi Berra

Now that we have the BPR spin on this.

Let review.

USAPA was sure that the RICO case is a winner. Dismissed with predjudice.

The Addington case had no merit. USAPA found liable of DFR.

The DOL investagation is a non-issue. Good luck with that.

How about finishing the rest of the story? Yes the investagation is over the presidents election. Care to explain why the election was run incorretly? Why was he not allowed to run? What smart lawyer gave the advice to deny him? How much did that advice cost to re run the election? Quick $25,000.

What is it going to cost to defend against a non-issue? USAPA could save a lot of money if you just did it right the first time. Instead of always looking for a way to screw the west.