US Pilots Labor Topic-Aug 1-5

[USA320Pilot]

captainJack,

USA320pilot said: USAPA created a DOH list and provided it to the Company. However, according to HP_-FA who attended the Addington trial and some of the hearings, “(US Airways attorney Robert) Siegel went on to state that the Company's position was that it wanted a single CBA and that it wanted to avoid labor unrest. Also, he stated that the Company accepts the Nicolau seniority list as being the seniority list for any negotiations.â€￾

captainJack asked: according to HP-FA...." Not court documents, not any other source, just HP-FA say so. Right.

USA320Pilot comments: The information is contained in the July 16 hearing transcript, which is available in the Legal Library or you can purchase it from the Court. You are free to spend the time to read the transcript because I'm not going to do your research for you.

USA320Pilot said: “The BPR created a Uniform Operating Manual (UOM) that is not available to the pilot group and is not on the website. The BPR held two meetings where they changed the UOM to provide them self bonus pay not available to members, which might be a violation of DOL law.â€￾

captainJack said: “FPL? Did you mention that? You have two "might be" violations there. Tossing those misrepresentations around just to muddy the water.

USA320pilot comments: This is being researched with the DOL. I understand there is case history here with the federal government where USAPA's actions were done at a small ALPA carrier and when the DOL did their investigation the union’s abuse came crashing down. If there is illegal behavior here we will find out more in due time. I do not want to comment more on this in a public forum, but if there is illegal activity here it will be interesting to see what happens.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[cleardirect]

The DOL should be crawling around usapa HQ sometime today as a matter of fact. I heard yesterday that Cleary had a 40 minute rectal exam by the DOL.

Wonder if he is walking funny today?

And the hits just keep on coming.Any bets as to when the first usapa official gets frog marched out of HQ for something?

 

[Crzipilot]

No fly lists, wow, sounds scary.

ya, real scary, wasn't meant to be. If you read between the lines, you would see that by one single person no longer being around, ALOT of no fly lists would end up having zero people on it, I.E. people who have no problem getting along with a wide variety of individuals on a professional level, seem to have a common problem with a single person. Take that for what it's worth....

 

[EastUS]

If there is illegal behavior here we will find out more in due time. I do not want to comment more on this in a public forum, but if there is illegal activity here it will be interesting to see what happens.

Is that reflective of why your tiny little sect of alpa groupies was/is so opposed to examining the pension give away/theft?

 

[HPDriver]

Saying Url are available and actually making them available are two different things. Your reluctance is telling of a liar. Try to change that.

What?!?!?

 

[EastUS]

The DOL should be crawling around usapa HQ sometime today as a matter of fact. I heard yesterday that Cleary had a 40 minute rectal exam by the DOL.

Wonder if he is walking funny today?

What truly elegant discourse properly reflective of a very classy group :blink:

I must be missing something subtly contained within the most recent west literary masterpieces. Let me see if I've got it at all right here:

1) There's "90% odds" the 9th will uphold the Wake court?

2) The DOL is about to decimate USAPA's officers?

3) USAPA's becoming a virtual clone of alpa?

4) The litigation being pursued with the MDA situation is completely hopeless?

Sigh...Hokay....umm...why so angry then? It seems, from all west observations, that you're getting exactly what you want on all fronts, and all should be well.

 

[Barrister]

The DOL should be crawling around usapa HQ sometime today as a matter of fact. I heard yesterday that Cleary had a 40 minute rectal exam by the DOL.

Wonder if he is walking funny today?

And the hits just keep on coming.Any bets as to when the first usapa official gets frog marched out of HQ for something?

Swear on your children;s lives that what you wrote is truthful. Cleary being investigated by the DOL.....yea....riiiiiiggggghhhhtttttt

 

[usabusdriver]

"This is over folks." Indeed..."over" for well past two full years and counting now..... It would almost be funny...were it not so just plain sad.

EastUS,

Your rhetoric is beginning to sound a bit overreaching. I say this because one can take your words and turn them around and argue just the opposite of what you intended.

Let me suggest to you an alternative to your remarks about “This is over folks†indeed... and the integrated seniority list, the Nicolau Award.

ALPA Executive Council – It’s over.
ALPA Executive Board – It’s over.
Jury in Addington trial – It’s over.
Judge in remedy for Addington trial – It’s over.

The East pilots have fought unabashedly against the Nicolau award as unjust. We have had the fluff of the committees to find consensual solutions and the election of the new CBA, yet the Nicolau Award remains unchanged, more than two years thenceforth. Somewhere along the line reality must be introduced into the picture and emotion pushed aside.

Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!


Many believe that the 9th Circuit will overturn or remand and give a second chance. While nothing in life is certain it seems a slim possibility. Why? Because the way the argument has been shaped. See Doc#593 Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law. If remanded it returns to Judge Wake's courtroom. It is my opinion that Lee Seham stubbornly clings to his original theories and strategies when the game has changed and taken a turn for the worse. Lee has been unsuccessful in countering or altering the new argument(s). And the only way to get back to the original game plan is to argue to the 9th Circuit that SSM&P’s ability to interpret case law under Lee Seham is superior to Judge Wake’s, a Federal District Court Judge, a very daunting task indeed. We shall see shortly, when the Appellant’s brief to the 9th Circuit is filed, the arguments brought forth to counter “This is over folksâ€. It's not funny and it's definately sad.

Just my .02 worth.

 

[Barrister]

Everyday USAPA becomes just a little more like ALPA. In the latest move towards the union the east hates. Read the methodology for distributing of the $35 million coming 2010.

LUMP SUM DISBURSEMENT RECOMMENDATIONS
METHODOLOGY “Aâ€￾

Affected Pilots :

Furloughed Pilots (Including MDA, J4J)

So now usapa agrees with the ALPA position that the MDA pilots were in facts FURLOUGHED. MDA guys the union that was going to save you. The union that you supported. The union that removed the evil ALPA because they did not treat you right. Just threw you under the bus.

Should be an interesting conversation at the next hearing for the MDA DFR. So the MDA guys are suing ALPA because they considered you to be furloughed. USAPA just released a document admitting the same position. That the MDA guys were furloughed.

Your posts shows a lack of knowledge of the facts. There were people who were fulroughed who by-passed a recall to MDA, there were pilots at J4J that were frozed at their respective carriers who had the SENIORITY to be at MDA but could not get released. The MDA guys paycheck said US Airways, the certificate said the same , bid pakages same EVERYTHING the same....try again.

 

[cleardirect]

Swear on your children;s lives that what you wrote is truthful. Cleary being investigated by the DOL.....yea....riiiiiiggggghhhhtttttt

You guys make me smile. You do not have to believe me. Do a little investigation on your own. Call Mike, call your rep.

DOL is going to climb up usapa's back side.

Why would I make up something so easy to prove or disprove.

Enjoy the exam.

 

[Barrister]

I'll get back to you on that. Got to get some "unbiased facts" about his behavior at a certain SAVE-OUR-ALPA informational meeting. I dont like to smash pumpkins without the "facts."


Those and 15 other posts in less than 24 hours, USA320Pilot? What's that all about? Carrying the West's water? Run out of East pilots who will listen to you?

BTW, speaking of "unbaised facts," almost a post and hour, why no comment on the lies from "unbiased facts" about Tracy and Scott's FPL? Got a real problem with that one, don't you, Pilot?

There are some people who, if they don't already know, you can't tell 'em. Yogi Berra

AND.....now it comes out that by buying 2 Fords USAPA will save 44K over 5 years over rentals. Wrong again USA320. You should be ashamed. And by the way, the vast majority here do not mind these union guys making a little extra. Just no 125K "event planners" like ALPA.

 

[spike99]

You also left out the most likely outcome. the ninth circuit upholds judge Wakes ruling and the injunction stands. That is the 90% odds on favorite.

Maybe you have been reading to much usapa propaganda to consider that a possibility.

I read the transcript and cited case law from the judges decision and the case law cited by USAPA. Judge Wake took a very narrow view of everything he cited. In my opinion, if he had truely wanted to protect himself from an appeal, he would have allowed all evidenciary findings. He however chose to only allow a very small disscussion, do the West pilots fair better under the Nic or DOH list. No one would admit they do not benefit from the windfall of the Nic, and the jury agreed based on the information they were allowed to hear. However, the Appeals Court might not agree with Judge Wakes' narrow view of the case. You still don't understand, paying for the 10% chance of the appeal winning is worth every penny compared to selling our careers for nothing. It's obvious from the rhetoric coming from the West, their strategy is to divide and conquer the East by once again trying to get the senior pilots to sell the junior pilots for a small token of gold. Once again, you have miss read the atmosphere on the East, though I have only been here 10 years, 6 LOS, almost all of the Captains I fly with say this is the most unified they have ever seen this group. Although there are a few who only want to move on in their own best interest, theirs is not the prevailing sentiment. Let's wait and see, until then the West gets their attrition and the East gets theirs, and since you only ever wanted what you brought to the merger, it should be fine infinitum. Please no comments about lost contracts/pay we've seen the actions of this management team.

 

[cleardirect]

Your posts shows a lack of knowledge of the facts. There were people who were fulroughed who by-passed a recall to MDA, there were pilots at J4J that were frozed at their respective carriers who had the SENIORITY to be at MDA but could not get released. The MDA guys paycheck said US Airways, the certificate said the same , bid pakages same EVERYTHING the same....try again.

Have we not heard from many that the MDA guys are going to get the Nicolau changed because they were never furloughed? I guess usapa does consider them furloughed.

You can complain all you want about where the check came from or what certificate you worked under. Your current union holds the same position as the union that is being sued for DFR. Can we expect to see usapa added to the DFR case?

Furloughed is furloughed. And the furloughed pilots went below the active pilots.

 

[cleardirect]

Let's wait and see, until then the West gets their attrition and the East gets theirs, and since you only ever wanted what you brought to the merger, it should be fine infinitum. Please no comments about lost contracts/pay we've seen the actions of this management team.

Thank you for making the same point again.

So will the east agree to this position? Will usapa go to the company and refuse to let the east fly the flights from PHX to Jamica just announced? As you say you only wanted what you brought to the merger. Did any of you have the expectation to fly from PHX to Jamica?

How about backing that attitude up with a little action and integrity. All east pilots refuse to do the flights. Demand the west crews do it.

 

[hp_fa]

Since you know this subject so well, when all is said and done with this, why don't you consider writing a book on what has/will go down? I am serious; you write so well and know your subject and even with your bias, I believe you could pen a tome that would be interesting to not only those who have a vested interest in USAir, but the aviation community at large.

Hahaha. You are not the first person to say that. Not even the second, nor even the second East pilot to say that.

If I were to even consider it I would really need a co-author from the East to help with the history of the AAA MEC and how it got to where it was before and after Nicolau. I was reading these boards from about 2002 or 2003 despite my profile saying 2004. Somehow my screen name got messed up, as did my one-time sponsor status for the site. (I had once donated $$$ just because I often donate to sites to help defray expenses. It's just something I do.) At any rate I have a good overview of at least some of the AAA MEC stuff post-2002, but the real stuff I would need is an inside view of what was going on so that it could be explained to any reader.

I also seriously doubt that folks like (this is from memory) Jack Stephan, Arnie Gentile, past president Pollack and others would really want to be interviewed or "memorialized" on this subject. I also doubt that Stephan Bradford, Mike Cleary, Randy Mowrey, Dave Ciabattoni, Scott Theuer and others would care to chat with me at length. While I have tried to arguably be objective, I doubt that I am on their Christmas Card Lists. Honestly, the only USAPA person I haven't had something to say much about has been Tracy Parrella. I suspect that I have not commented on her because most of what I have seen is that she is well-qualified for her position and was a carryover from ALPA because she was damn good at what she does. Since I have been advocating that people be involved in their union to keep from being badly surprised by events, it just doesn't seem that I should be posting much about folks like that as long as they haven't said or done anything incredibly stupid.

Anyway, as you can see I have at least thought about the project. I just don't think it is probably viable and there likely wouldn't be much of a general audience for such a project. Perhaps union members and even some legal professionals wanting to see what it looks like from the inside, but still outside the attorney-client privilege.

One last thing. My 11th grade English teacher would have to be resurrected so he could die again when told that I would author anything. You see, I flunked his class, thereby solving my summer plans for 1969.