US Pilot Labor Thread 10/19-10/26

[oldiebutgoody]

What could I possibly say that wouldn't get me kicked off this board?????

Pretty much nothing, since anything you say that disagrees with my premise would be wrong.

 

[nic4us]

Oldie,

here are three that did not go DOH TWA/Ozark SWA/Morris American/TWA. I will give you three more, American/Reno Norhtwest/Republic Delta/Western, do you have one more DOH.

ALPA is trying to change merger policy, but the new policy will not be DOH, because it is not the end all of unionism, quite the contrary. I will go even further and predict that the current NW/Delta arbitration will not go DOH. You are aware there is a new federal law regarding this subject?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Oldie,

here are three that did not go DOH TWA/Ozark SWA/Morris American/TWA. I will give you three more, American/Reno Norhtwest/Republic Delta/Western, do you have one moreDOH.

So, what's your point? The fact that other carriers make mistakes too? All, except for maybe the SWA/Morris merger, have been documented as screwed up messes. The only reason the SWA/Morris one succeeded was because of SWA's superior management, which allowed the airline to "outgrow" those issues.

TWA/Ozark set the standard in the early 1980s for ugly mergers. Delta ALPA screwed the Western guys. Northwest/Republic is probably still using separate contracts. Yea, your examples are pretty good. Pretty good for my case, not yours.

 

[Megasnoop]

Oldie, This is another halftruth the east keeps using. DOH is a method of integration, hardly ever used historically when combining two pilot groups. To illustrate this you name one straight DOH integration that occurred in the past 40 years outside of any involving US Air, and I will name three or more that did not.

Speaking 1/2truths, 4, I wont accuse you of that, but USAPA approach is DOH + considerable protections and restrictions. Under our plan, I cant bid PHX unless no west pilot bids it. In that light, it really isnt strict DOH, so yo get 1/2credit. Since you brought it up, name 1 merger in the past 40 years that didnt have DOH (with protections and restrictions) as the major component to it. I forgot, TWA/AMR. Wait, that was ALPO/Non-ALPO. ALPO made sure that one didnt go DOH. Former TWA pilots still suing ALPO. Then there was ALK/JetAmerica. ALPO messed with that one too. JA pilots sued and won. Then DAL/PanAm. But wait, that was an acquisition. The screwed PanAm pilots sued ALPO and collected $54 Million. Piedmont/USAir/PSA, 1980s? DOH? That debate will go on back here until J Thomas retires. I think I got DOH out of that one.

Further, there are federal laws against the CBA discriminating against a minority group, as they are indeed obligated to work in their best intrest, not harm them because majority benefits if they do.

No Federal laws, just some lawsuit decisions. "Minority group" Air Wisconsin pilots tested that and lost. JetAmerica "minority" tested that and won. They almost got DOH. If you dont like the will of the majority, you can test the final list in court. TWA/APA/ALPO DFR on life support, 8 years after that merger. Oh, I forgot, 8 years from now the west will be in the majority. snooper

 

[cleardirect]

For all of you guys that think that the conditions and restrictions that USAPA put on the table are fair, try this. The east thinks that the Nicolau is unfair to you. The west knows that DOH places 80% of our list below Dean Colello who was furloughed at the time of the merger.

You think that the C&R will make DOH fair. How about this.

We use the Nicolau list and the USAPA C&R. Now think about if that is enough protection for you? All of the C&R. If that will maintain your pre-merger career expectations.

That we set a number of protected positions for the east. But if someone moves that number goes down. Any growth in the east we get half. Any new international flying the west gets it all. Any new bases are bid by the Nicolau. Any new aircraft type it is bid by the Nicolau. Any growth in the west you bid what you can hold by the Nicolau.

Those are USAPA’s C&R. Could you live with the Nicolau and your C&R?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Has anybody noticed that none of the West guys are disputing my statement about them wanting the East guys' jobs?

Oh, and, by the way, the new federal law dictates using the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs to accomplish the merger, which went basically DOH. Also, it doesn't apply if both carriers are represented by the same association.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

For all of you guys that think that the conditions and restrictions that USAPA put on the table are fair, try this. The east thinks that the Nicolau is unfair to you. The west knows that DOH places 80% of our list below Dean Colello who was furloughed at the time of the merger.

You think that the C&R will make DOH fair. How about this.

We use the Nicolau list and the USAPA C&R. Now think about if that is enough protection for you? All of the C&R. If that will maintain your pre-merger career expectations.

That we set a number of protected positions for the east. But if someone moves that number goes down. Any growth in the east we get half. Any new international flying the west gets it all. Any new bases are bid by the Nicolau. Any new aircraft type it is bid by the Nicolau. Any growth in the west you bid what you can hold by the Nicolau.

Those are USAPA’s C&R. Could you live with the Nicolau and your C&R?

Nope, doesn't work. The Nic was flawed from the start. There is NO WAY to make it fair. The only way would be to keep both sides TOTALLY SEPARATE, which would work for me. East keeps their growth and attrition, and West keeps theirs. New bases East go to the East guys, New bases West go to the West guys. There. That would fix it.

There's NO REASON guys hired in 2005 should EVER be given seniority over guys hired in 1987. It flat out ain't gonna happen. If you don't like what's happening here, then I suggest you move on.

 

[Megasnoop]

Oldie, ALPA is trying to change merger policy, but the new policy will not be DOH, because it is not the end all of unionism, quite the contrary. I will go even further and predict that the current NW/Delta arbitration will not go DOH. You are aware there is a new federal law regarding this subject?

4, new federal law passed AFTER our merger. That one wont help you much. But sue away. Its your constitutional right. Imagine 3 arbs fighting it out on what seniority really is. 3 times the words, 3 times the confusion. So maybe no DOH there.

Oldie, here are three that did not go DOH TWA/Ozark SWA/Morris American/TWA. I will give you three more, American/Reno Norhtwest/Republic Delta/Western, do you have one moreDOH.

To review: TWA/OZ, ALPO screwed OZ, didn't they?
SWA/Morris, which one had a union? Oldies right. SWA gave every Morris pilot a raise and the left seat in 3 years, but they did have a life-time fence, Morris pilots could only bid 737.
NWA/Rep, DOH, but with 20 year fences. with 10 year fences, USAPA nowhere near that.
DAL/WAL, yeah, ALPO screwed WAL on that one, or was it ALPO President and DAL pilot Hank Duffy screwing WAL? So much for ALPO being neutral. snooper

 

[cleardirect]

You forget whom the "list" is negotiable with. Management is not included in that list.

Accepting a list has no partisan edge to it. It implies no slant to either direction. To avoid invoking a lawsuit, management cannot choose to accept or reject a proffered "list". The majority of pilots voted for DOH. That is reality. Trying to weasel out of that context seems quite demeaning on your part.

Nark,

I think that you are either confused or deliberately ignoring the facts.

First! You had better speak to your USAPA leadership and get straightened out. Their position has been that they can just negotiate a list other than the Nicolau. Steve Bradford quote. “Seniority is negotiated just like crew meals.â€￾ So management is the other party that must agree to the proposed new list. At this time the west is not even in the room. The negociations between the west and the east is over. That has been done.

To avoid invoking a lawsuit, management cannot choose to accept or reject a proffered "list".

Second! As Bradford said the list is only a section of the contract no different than a crew meal or pay rates. If the company decides to completely reject a proffered pay rate list that will not “invoke a lawsuitâ€￾. The same with a contrived seniority list.

The majority of pilots voted for DOH.

Third! That statement is very interesting and telling and completely wrong. It is telling that you finally admit the truth. USAPA is only about DOH nothing else. You guys can try and convince yourselves or the rest of the world that it was anything else. That it was ALPA or management or your pensions or what ever. You just told us that you vote for DOH. Now please point to any legal document. The east contract, the west contract, the T/A, ALPA merger policy or even USAPA C&BL that says that the membership gets to vote on a seniority list.

This is where your confusion or wishing comes from. The only vote that you or any of us get is to vote on a contract. If you decide to only vote for a contract that includes DOH that s your choice. Short sighted and narrow minded but your choice. If that contract does not include a DOH (negotiated with management list) you must decide if it includes enough to vote for or you can continue to vote no. But that contract will not include DOH.

If the lawsuits are successful and USAPA and management are precluded from using anything other than the Nicolau or the company decides to live up to their obligation and use the Nicolau list that contract will not include DOH. Period. Then you are going to have to make a choice.

 

[Piedmont1984]

For all of you guys that think that the conditions and restrictions that USAPA put on the table are fair, try this. The east thinks that the Nicolau is unfair to you. The west knows that DOH places 80% of our list below Dean Colello who was furloughed at the time of the merger.

You think that the C&R will make DOH fair. How about this.

We use the Nicolau list and the USAPA C&R. Now think about if that is enough protection for you? All of the C&R. If that will maintain your pre-merger career expectations.

That we set a number of protected positions for the east. But if someone moves that number goes down. Any growth in the east we get half. Any new international flying the west gets it all. Any new bases are bid by the Nicolau. Any new aircraft type it is bid by the Nicolau. Any growth in the west you bid what you can hold by the Nicolau.

Those are USAPA’s C&R. Could you live with the Nicolau and your C&R?

The difference between the Nic and DOH is that the Nic actually "places" or manipulates pilots wherever Nicolau decided was best. It is an artificial assemblage utilizing ambiguous and irrelevant factors such as expectations and financial snapshots, while ignoring the value of time on the job. Totally backwards.

DOH is self explanatory, fair and equitable. It doesn't place pilots like the Nic - out of their natural order. The 80% that would go below Colello is a misleading statement. They were already there - by virtue of when they arrived compared to when he arrived.

 

[nic4us]

Oldie,

My point is, you said "DOH is the predominant method used", I was simply pointing out that in regards to pilot integration it is by no means predominant and more likely rare.

Further, "If you don't like what is happening here, then I suggest you move on." You may have to heed your own advice when the Nicolau decision is implemented. I did notice that did not happen when it was published.

Finally, I do not want an east job. You have nothing that intrest me in the slightest. However, you are accumulating jobs that rightfully belong to the west, and I am afraid it will be a real eyeopener when west pilots are allowed to fill those positions.

I do like your idea about new bases though, any base west of CLT goes to the west, any new base east of BOS goes east.



Snoop,

You are correct that I was hiding the C&R portion of USAPAs seniority proposal. So in all fairness you could have accused me of being half truthful. However, the restrictions from your point of view seem restricting and from the west point of view are career destroying, because they are accompanied by the DOH list. Again my biggest problem with all of this is that USAPA does not get to decide what is fair for the West. They do not get to decide what my expectation is,was or is going to be. I had said before that I would not agree to a one sided decision no matter what the C&Rs said, USAPAs proposed C&Rs just piss the west off even more.

As far as naming one merger that did not have DOH as a component, obviously there would be none. The best way to show this would be to remind you and every east pilot that the Nic is also based on DOH. Your position on that list is determined by your DOH at your last company, same as my position on that list.

 

[cleardirect]

Nope, doesn't work. The Nic was flawed from the start. There is NO WAY to make it fair. The only way would be to keep both sides TOTALLY SEPARATE, which would work for me. East keeps their growth and attrition, and West keeps theirs. New bases East go to the East guys, New bases West go to the West guys. There. That would fix it.

There's NO REASON guys hired in 2005 should EVER be given seniority over guys hired in 1987. It flat out ain't gonna happen. If you don't like what's happening here, then I suggest you move on.

Nope, doesn't work. The (DOH) was flawed from the start. There is NO WAY to make it fair.

As I said you don’t think the Nicolau is fair we don’t think the DOH is fair. So why would you think the USAPA’s C&R are fair for the west? If they do not work for the east.

Totally separate ops might solve your problem. However looking beyond your own selfish desires there are other parties involved in this merger. Primarily Parker and the company. The company did not do this merger to run two different companies. Eventually the time, money and man power being wasted on this seniority issue will come to an end. We will have one list and one contract sometime.

This issue will be decided by either a judge or by the company. A judge will tell USAPA if they can disregard contractual obligations or the company will decide if they are going to live up to their obligations.

If you don't like what's happening here, then I suggest you move on.

Yes I would seriously have to consider moving on if DOH happens. 80% of the west would have to think about the destruction brought on by USAPA. The C&R are a useless joke as you admitted. There is no protection for the west. USAPA’ list and C&R are a career ending list. They do not maintain my pre-merger career expectations.

So if the Nicolau is implemented is this what you are going to do? Will you leave if you do not get DOH?

 

[nic4us]

The difference between the Nic and DOH is that the Nic actually "places" or manipulates pilots wherever Nicolau decided was best. It is an artificial assemblage utilizing ambiguous and irrelevant factors such as expectations and financial snapshots, while ignoring the value of time on the job. Totally backwards.

DOH is self explanatory, fair and equitable. It doesn't place pilots like the Nic - out of their natural order. The 80% that would go below Colello is a misleading statement. They were already there - by virtue of when they arrived compared to when he arrived.

The statement that Colello arrived before anyone else is also misleading. Colello arrived the same day I did, you did, the BOD, the Corporate officers and anyone else who works for LCC did. Difference between Colello and everyone else is everyone else was employed in a postion senior to Colello's at that time.

 

[CaptBud330]

Not to add a fly to the ointment, but.... The Allegheny-Mohawk merger did not go straight date of hire. The date of hire was altered because the merger sat on Nixon's desk 12 days too long because it contained an international (Canada) route transfer. The Allegheny guys were accruing seniority as were the furloughed Mohawk pilots that were working for Allegheny. We actually were on 2 seniority lists. If the merger did not go through, we had the option of remaining at Allegheny with our Allegheny seniority or returning to Mohawk furlough status. Well, as fate would have it, those pilots that were hired in August 1968 and beyond were actually loosing Mohawk seniority even though they were working with Allegheny. Since Allegheny had no pilots on furlough, they continued to accrue seniority. Had the merger occurred on schedule, the Mohawk pilots hired in August 1968 would still be senior to the pilots at Allegheny hired in January, 1969. But since the merger sat on the Presidents desk for 12 extra days, the seniority loosing Mohawk pilots fell behind the Allegheny pilots hired in January, 1969. There were other twists and turns to try and resolve this problem but after the ensuing court decision, 6 of the furloughed pilots working for Allegheny won their back seniority and were placed on the combined seniority list before the January '69 Allegheny pilots. The rest of us were not so lucky and were placed out of seniority behind the Jan. '69 Allegheny pilots even though our date of hire was before the Allegheny pilots. Anyone that doubts this, get a combined Mohawk-Allegheny list and you will see the list goes 1968--1969, then back to 1968. It sure did matter. The pilots with adjusted date of hire suffered a 2 year furlough in 1975. Had we had out actual date of hire, none of us would have been furloughed.
You might ask yourself why we didn't appeal the judges decision to only award the first six pilots out of the 23 that were Mohawk furloughees, it was because the 6 that got their back seniority refused to let the lawyers appeal for fear their renewed seniority would again be altered back to the original position behind the Jan.'69 Allegheny guys. It just goes to show, we are all whores.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Oldie,

My point is, you said "DOH is the predominant method used", I was simply pointing out that in regards to pilot integration it is by no means predominant and more likely rare.

Where did I say anything about pilot mergers? It was a statement which included ALL mergers, not just the airlines, which are traditionally screwed up. It's probably because pilots don't use DOH that their mergers are such a joke to everyone else.

Further, "If you don't like what is happening here, then I suggest you move on." You may have to heed your own advice when the Nicolau decision is implemented. I did notice that did not happen when it was published.

No need to. The pilot group came to their senses and voted in USAPA.

Finally, I do not want an east job. You have nothing that intrest me in the slightest. However, you are accumulating jobs that rightfully belong to the west, and I am afraid it will be a real eyeopener when west pilots are allowed to fill those positions.

Couldn't prove by what I read here or on other sites. The East guys only want what is rightfully theirs. Even if the list was straight DOH, I don't think you'd see a whole lot of movement from East to West. What East jobs are there that you feel entitled to? The East had ALL the 190s prior to the merger, ALL the transatlantic, ALL the widebodies, and ALL the caribbean flying. Just what do you feel is yours?

I do like your idea about new bases though, any base west of CLT goes to the west, any new base east of BOS goes east.

How about something fair, like East and West of the Mississippi? The West would still have much more territory than the East. You know, that in the late 1980s and early 1990s that the East side had crew bases in LA, SFO, and SAN. Maybe the East guys should get first rights to bases in CA, as well.