US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 9/19- 9/27..

[UtterlyUdder]

Old and wrong. Well examining what we have said from the beginning we have been correct. Final and binding means final and binding. A jury and federal judge now say so. Integrity does matter. No one can argue against that. Living up to ones word is a matter of integrity.]

It is "old and wrong" because you say so. That is so typical. Judges can and sometimes do the wrong thing and everyone knows juries are not right 100% of the time. Hence the appeal to the 9th.

[Yes usapa is the legal union but that does not make it legitimate. The purpose of it’s inception was illegitimate. To get out of arbitration and to disadvantage the west pilots. See the judge’s findings of fact document. That is what he said.]

That is parsing by you in order to obfuscate. I repeat: The entire world can read this forum and people can make up their own minds as to wx or not you are right.

[So yes the west has been obstructing usapa from doing what usapa was designed to do. Disadvantage the west. Plus as members it is our legal right to oppose a direction that we disagree with if the union is going in the wrong direction.]

That is your opinion of USAPA's reason d' tet however, did't you West pilots try to get rid of ALPA a couple of times?

[You are right that none of us know what the courts will do just like we did not know what Nicolau was going to do. If the east MC had taken that attitude a little more seriously maybe we would not be in this position. If the MC had realized that DOH was not going to happen instead of assuming that it had to be that way. When Nicolau told the MC that they were not going to get DOH then was the time to compromise, not now.]

I know I am right about NOT knowing what the Courts will do so thank you for recognizing that. You don't know how this will turn out either.

[We do not know what the court will rule but we can take an educated guess. When we first went to court DFR’s are hard to win but we knew we had a good case. Better than average, so something over 50%. After we began to see the filings and the legal theories from Seham those odds started going up. In the end the west prevailed.]

Your "educated guess" is still just a guess.

[Now in the ninth circuit the statistics speak for themselves. The court of appeal does not rule on the merits of the case or the outcome. They rule on how the judge did his job. Judge Wake does his job very well. The statistics in the ninth are that 95% of the time they uphold or agree with the judge and jury. So we don’t know but the chances are 95% on the west side that we will win this case. The odds get even longer to even see the SCOTUS.]

Again, that is your opinion which counts for naught in the same way mine does. Naught.

[You may not agree with the west “mantra†but we have been right more time than we have been wrong. One last thing, before you start pointing finger at the west about how nasty some posts have been. Take a look at some of the east posts. Figure out how many east posters have seen the corn field. Being right tends to reduce the stress and keep the posts reasonable where some east posts are shrill and downright vicious and nutty.]

The above is your opinion. School is still out until the 9th rules.

[We don’t now how the court will rule but we have a very good idea. Besides even in that 5% usapa wins the appeal. It only sends it back from a retrial before judge Wake. He knows the facts. A win on appeal does not end this in USAPA’s favor. It only continues the delay further.

Bingo on "we don't know how the court will rule" The rest of what you wrote above is more of your speculation.

You failed to mention the intent of my post and that is when people who either don't have an opinion on this subject read here, they see a distinct difference in tone and manner East vs. West. After a time, one could deduce that the West is whisting past the graveyard, hoping that if they say something loud enough and strong enough that they will get their way. Au contraire!

 

[VAflyGal]

I just have to say I feel sorry for you guys. I really do. Each and every one of you. I have been trying to keep up with all this madness since it began, and over time, it's only gotten more complicated with more mud slinging with less of an end in sight. As a flight attendant, I wish you the best. The venom on this board is nauesating and I hope that, by some miracle, or grace of the powers that be, that you will find some reasonable solution. The arguing and bickering is insane. It is exhausting seeing this go on and on for the last four years and I don't believe there will be a solution without some monster like AMR coming in and throwing everyone under the bus. For the sake of all of us, I hope that doesn't happen. Good luck.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

This is just a chatboard. If the east wasn't a numerical majority this never would have been dragging out this long. An independent minded look at the record, all of it, since day one, shows where the problem is.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Doc 593 lays it out perfectly. That will be the historical record to this mess which future generations will reference.

 

[nic4us]

Nic,

Well, I for one hope you pay something. I respect you and your posts (the only one actually, except for Clear about 20% of the time)
and I hope you pay your dues when presented with your section 29 pay up notice. If not, well, I'll be glad to hold the door open for you and, don't worry, I won't let it hit you on the way out. maybe some day we'll fly together. We would make an awesome team!

Thanks jetjok,

You are about the third or fourth east poster this week that says the best thing for me to do is join and participate. The advice we are getting from AOL is to join and participate. Maybe I should rethink my stance.

I have two issues, (to open it up for debate imagine this being said by John McLaughlin )

Issue One:

usapa was initially formed primarily as a means of circumventing a binding arbitration and disadvantaging the West. We were told that the majority was going to run over us, and our input did not matter. Why would I, as a direct target of the tyranny of the majority, care to join and lend any credence to the notion that this is a legitimate organization that represents me.

Issue Two:

I really do not want to join just to be a thorn in usapa's paw, or be a bad "union pilot". I mean really, until we are all heading the same direction becoming a member just to force recall votes, call BPR meetings, demand copies of union literature, just to run up bills we would all be paying is just as stupid as Seham's original game plan.

So on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being do not pay and try and fight a losing section 29 battle and 10 being becoming a MIG and running for President of usapa, where does Nic4us fit in? Somewhere around a 3.

Actually, I might have to join and run for office just to keep the infamous producer of the goat video from holding office.

 

[Hate2fly]

BTW shooting an airplane will get you fired also.


Yo Clear,

Not fired just time off! Another USAPA Victory! Thank You!

We have so much to look forward to in the coming months.

Lump Sum Payouts

TA8 and 10

LOA 84 Pay Restoration

MDA lawsuit..........interesting depositions from Nic and Brucia!

The 9th.......we get to see if your boy the judge got it right or wrong!

Hate

P.S. Life always gets harder near the summit.

 

[nic4us]

Nic,
maybe some day we'll fly together. We would make an awesome team!

Forgot to mention, Some time ago I suggested on this board, ( to EastUS, whatever happened to him?), that as a means of breaking down barriers and prove that east and west could fly together, we could start by doing recurrent training with mixed crews. That is say for 12 months all PHX A320 captains go to CLT and all PHL captains go to PHX. Basically force the sides to fly together during their recurrent, something we do not wish to fail.

Kind of a forced icebreaker, that would allow Flight Standards to take a look and see if everyone is on the same page.

In any event, I am certain any two USAirways pilots are capable teamwork, and getting the job done right.

 

[Hawkhunter]

Forgot to mention, Some time ago I suggested on this board, ( to EastUS, whatever happened to him?), that as a means of breaking down barriers and prove that east and west could fly together, we could start by doing recurrent training with mixed crews. That is say for 12 months all PHX A320 captains go to CLT and all PHL captains go to PHX. Basically force the sides to fly together during their recurrent, something we do not wish to fail.

Kind of a forced icebreaker, that would allow Flight Standards to take a look and see if everyone is on the same page.

In any event, I am certain any two USAirways pilots are capable teamwork, and getting the job done right.

Oh yeah, that sounds like a riot. Not!

 

[jetjok1]

I just have to say I feel sorry for you guys. I really do. Each and every one of you. I have been trying to keep up with all this madness since it began, and over time, it's only gotten more complicated with more mud slinging with less of an end in sight. As a flight attendant, I wish you the best. The venom on this board is nauesating and I hope that, by some miracle, or grace of the powers that be, that you will find some reasonable solution. The arguing and bickering is insane. It is exhausting seeing this go on and on for the last four years and I don't believe there will be a solution without some monster like AMR coming in and throwing everyone under the bus. For the sake of all of us, I hope that doesn't happen. Good luck.

Just remember, there is a very small number of pilots that actually post on this site. There are a lot that just sit on the sidelines and read and the majority don't even get on this website. So, all is not lost VA......this place does not represent the pilot group as a whole.

 

[jetjok1]

Thanks jetjok,

You are about the third or fourth east poster this week that says the best thing for me to do is join and participate. The advice we are getting from AOL is to join and participate. Maybe I should rethink my stance.

I have two issues, (to open it up for debate imagine this being said by John McLaughlin )

Issue One:

usapa was initially formed primarily as a means of circumventing a binding arbitration and disadvantaging the West. We were told that the majority was going to run over us, and our input did not matter. Why would I, as a direct target of the tyranny of the majority, care to join and lend any credence to the notion that this is a legitimate organization that represents me.

Issue Two:

I really do not want to join just to be a thorn in usapa's paw, or be a bad "union pilot". I mean really, until we are all heading the same direction becoming a member just to force recall votes, call BPR meetings, demand copies of union literature, just to run up bills we would all be paying is just as stupid as Seham's original game plan.

So on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being do not pay and try and fight a losing section 29 battle and 10 being becoming a MIG and running for President of usapa, where does Nic4us fit in? Somewhere around a 3.

Actually, I might have to join and run for office just to keep the infamous producer of the goat video from holding office.

Nic,

LOL! Well, just to set the record straight. I'm a MIG at best and a MIG at worst. I don't really partake in the process. I do it because I need too but I've been in this industry long enough to know I've been shammed and shilled for years with ALPA. I've said this before, I don't know if USAPA is the answer........I only know ALPA wasn't.

 

[Waketurbulence]

Yo Clear,

Not fired just time off! Another USAPA Victory! Thank You!

Yeh, lets look at the usapa "victory"...

This guy shot the airplane March 2008 and was suspended immediately.

Then in April 2008 various news agencys report that he has been fired:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/v-print/story/45451.html

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/pilot.gun/index.html

There was an arbritration in late 2008 or early 2009 where the great usapa tried to get his job back but when their only witness, who is not in the program, testifies that he has seen many different pilots not following the programs SOP's (yes, that was the defense's strategy) the company made it clear that they were going to demand the usapass star witness disclose those pilots names.

Well as it goes, the witness is pulled by the great usapa lawyer and usapa offers no other witnesses.

The arbritrator upheld the termination. The guy has been fired.

His name is not on the Oct 2009 (09-04) east perm bid.

So H2fly, just how much "time off" did he get?

Yep, "another usapa victory"

 

[cleardirect]

BTW shooting an airplane will get you fired also.


Yo Clear,

Not fired just time off! Another USAPA Victory! Thank You!

We have so much to look forward to in the coming months.

Lump Sum Payouts

TA8 and 10

LOA 84 Pay Restoration

MDA lawsuit..........interesting depositions from Nic and Brucia!

The 9th.......we get to see if your boy the judge got it right or wrong!

Hate

P.S. Life always gets harder near the summit.

The lump sum was negotiated by another union so they can not take credit for that. The rest.

Promises of things to come. I have not seen anything solid from usapa yet. Except the ability to make promises.

"usapa can operate a union much cheaper" Still the same 1.95% ALPA dues plus assesments.
"usapa is going to stop the FPL abuse" We know how that is going.
"usapa is going to be able to get a DOH list" See federal injunction.


When most of those promises fail what is going to be the next promise?

 

[2BorNot2B]

Just remember, there is a very small number of pilots that actually post on this site. There are a lot that just sit on the sidelines and read and the majority don't even get on this website. So, all is not lost VA......this place does not represent the pilot group as a whole.

Is there a website that the "happy" USAirways pilots post on?? This thread is heartbreaking ... month after month of the same animosity! :down:


2b

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Is there a website that the "happy" USAirways pilots post on?? This thread is heartbreaking ... month after month of the same animosity! :down:


2b

I'm guessing all the happy USAirways pilots are all out living their lives, instead of wasting a good portion of it on message boards. For all the advantages and convenience the internet offers, it sure does have it's downside. It brings out the worst in people and is a colossal waste of time in far to many instances.

 

[cleardirect]

Denied again. I have to give credit to SSM&P. They can take a beating like no one else. Lose, lose, lose but keep trying. But at least they are geting paid big bucks to take the shots.

What is usapa getting out of the court beatings?

I don't get it. Seham charges usapa for the filing asking for an extention of time. But does not wait for an answer then files the answer. If SSM&P was able to answer in the time allotted why ask for more time? Other than to delay the process and run up the bill.

BTW Seham asked for legal fees. DENIED.

Before the Court is Defendant USAPA's First Motion to Extend Time to Answer Plaintiffs' Second Amended Complaint. (Doc. # 609.) The Motion is mooted by Defendant's September 18, 2009 Answer to the Second Amended Complaint. (Doc. # 616.)

However, even if the Motion were not moot, the Court would have denied the Motion. Though Defendant's time to file a motion to dismiss has been extended so as to not interfere with counsel's work on the appeal, there is benefit to pleading in response to the Second Amended Complaint so Plaintiff can plan its litigation. Preparing an answer would not be a significant burden on Defendant.

IT IS THEREFORE ORDERED that Defendant USAPA's First Motion to Extend
Time to Answer Plaintiffs' Second Amended Complaint (Doc. # 609) is denied as moot.
DATED this 24th day of September, 2009.
Case 2:08-cv-01633-NVW Document 617 Filed 09/24/09

When is someone going to get a hold of the out of control spending by Cleary and the BPR? Every document costs money. Why file useless documents? When is usapa going to be held accountable for irresponsible behavior?

By the time the appeal is over usapa is going to have spent $3 million on this litigation. Nice payday for Seham. Add to that 1.8 in legal fees for the west. $4.8 million per east pilot. $1600 is what usapa has taken from you to chase an impossible theory. Include the damages portion. Include the delay of a new contract and we are now talking real money new.

What if ALPA had told you they were taking $1600 from you to lose in court. Would you all be willing to just hand over that money without holding someone accountable? Why are you letting usapa take it from you?