USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[algflyr]

I suggest you educate yourself on what is being discussed in court during the remedy phase. The judge is not going to allow a remedy that will allow the majority to disenfranchise the minority.

So are you saying the Judge will rule that ALL East pilot MUST vote yes on any contract??

Or if not that, then the next contract will just be inposed on the pilots without a vote...

These are the only two solutions that will produce a contract that contains the NIC award...

Of course, in time, as the old easties retire, the West will eventually outnumber the East and will be able to vote in a contract. But by that time the Nic won't even matter because most of the Easties will be gone.

 

[flyboeing737]

So are you saying the Judge will rule that ALL East pilot MUST vote yes on any contract??

Or if not that, then the next contract will just be inposed on the pilots without a vote...

These are the only two solutions that will produce a contract that contains the NIC award...

Of course, in time, as the old easties retire, the West will eventually outnumber the East and will be able to vote in a contract. But by that time the Nic won't even matter because most of the Easties will be gone.

No I am not saying they must vote yes.

More along the lines if there is not contract by a certain date the list becomes active.

 

[V1cut]

Well, it seems many need re-educating on what remedy the judge was considering...actually, there were two. (in the event of a finding for plaintiffs)

1) The Nic goes unchallenged into the next JOINT CBA.
he admitted the East would be perfectly legal to vote it down, over and over, via a democratic
voting in which he could not interfere, and in which there would be not contempt challenges
since it's perfectly legal to vote any way one wants.

(seperate ops....and judge was fine with that as well)



2) Dual ratification reinstated going forward, and No Nic forced upon the union. This is what
suggested, and after some thought, the judge appered to think this method may break
the inevitable logjam that choice #1 will inevitably lead to.

(more likely to lead both East and West back to the table...or so he opined)



We haven't heard the end of this yet, and (depending on his choice of remedy) this is a hollow victory indeed for the west since it results in no measurable change from current events.

 

[V1cut]

Don't worry the remedy will probably force NIC to be implemented to prevent this from occurring.

It's obvious you haven't read the court transcripts.

I suggest you do, before you get all worked up. The judge said he can cause the Nic to be inserted in a joint CBA going forward, but that the voting members of the East can vote it down, without recourse, and without contempt charges....and he was fine with that as it's every voting members' right to choose yes or no on any CBA proposal.
So, there's what the judge said regarding the Nic... oh, by the way...he NEVER mentioned a "drop-dead" date for a contract either, as you suggest on the other thread.

Fabricating the story so soon?

His plan B was reinstating dual-ratification for any new CBA...and NO Nic.....


so there ya go.

PLAN A- Nic going forward with veto power by East. S E P E R A T E O P S

PLAN B- dual-ratification with no Nic.....

(this was his last published discussion with the lawyers...we'll see)

 

[Tiger 1050]

Where's EastUS? I remember a lot of rhetoric regarding jury's being... Ahh never mind. I'm sure he was just joking. 🙄

 

[N924PS]

Where's EastUS? I remember a lot of rhetoric regarding jury's being... Ahh never mind. I'm sure he was just joking. 🙄

I'm sure there's a conspiracy theory to be found somewhere. Just give him some time.

 

[oscarjazz]

To all USAPA members in good standing.

I have sent a letter to our leadership team urging them to pause now and get a "Position Report".

Poll the rank and file by whatever means necessary and available. Find out what the pilot group wants to do. Find out if sentiment has shifted in any way. The poll should answer one question and ask another.

1- What are the most realistic expectations - not optimistic expectations - in terms of time, money and prospects in pursuing the appeal process.

2- Does the membership feel it is time to change our strategy going forward; accept what we have been saddled with in terms of the Nic award and begin to focus on contract. Perhaps, depending on the court imposed remedy, some small measures to mitigate the full impact of the Nic.

I will do whatever the majority decides to do. But I think we need to hear from the majority. Our attorneys and union leaders have repeatedly assured us that this trial had no merit, it would not get to trial, the west could not win. I remember the same assurances during the arbitration process.

I am getting really tired of attorneys.

This is the kind of thinking that could save US Airways pilots (all of them). You all have suffered enough. Since I work for another airline I should root for your company to fail, but I can't do that in good conscience. I urge you to not only contact your union leaders but to reach out to your fellow pilots, get involved in the process, act as a leader to your group. The reasonable, silent majority needs to step up and out shout those that just want to prolong this fight. Pretty soon, most Delta co-pilots will make more than most LCC captains from the East. You can all get an immediate upgrade just by getting an industry standard contract. You can't do that while this useless battle continues.

Take back the control of your fate (both sides) from those that want to fight. Right now I see two sides losing and a company that is failing. Enough already, you ALL deserve better than this.

 

[etops1]

US Airways West Pilots Win DFR Lawsuit Against USAPA

At approximately 10:40 this morning, a jury of nine, at the
Sandra Day O’Connor federal court house in Phoenix, AZ, found
USAPA liable in the Addington case. This is a Duty of Fair
Representation (DFR) law suit between the West-based pilots of
US Airways and the US Airways Pilots Association (USAPA) which
won representation of both pilot groups last year.

The West pilots of US Airways now have a final resolution to
their arbitrated seniority. Winning this lawsuit, means that
USAPA did not fairly represent the West based pilots in their
implementation of the USAPA Date of Hire seniority integration
list and that the seniority list arbitrated by NMB Arbitrator
Nicolau will stand.

Many pilots have been waiting for this answer. It has been a
long journey to reach this decision and the hope was that the
pilot group could put the seniority issue aside and unite toward
reaching a single contract with management. With this decision,
AFA was hopeful that the Company will move forward to reach
combined contracts with both the pilot and flight attendant
groups.

However, immediately after the jury reached their decision,
USAPA put out a statement saying, “our legal team is already
working on an expedited appeal and stay of any proposed
injunctive relief,â€￾ and are planning to appeal to “The 9th
Circuit Court of Appeals and, if necessary, the United States
Supreme Court .“

It is our hope that USAPA will accept this decision and move
forward with this merger and with their careers.

MEC President, Lisa LeCarre
MEC Vice President, Dorene Fredette
MEC Secretrary-Treasurer, Jeff Albers

 

[theFLYonthewall]

No I am not saying they must vote yes.

More along the lines if there is not contract by a certain date the list becomes active.

Another windfall for the West pilots.

Well maybe the NTSB investigation into the BUF Continental Express crash will bring awareness to the importance of experience. Maybe the flying public needs to be made aware that the NIC award gives an AWA pilot with 10 years experience higher seniority and credits them with time served then a USA pilot with 20 years experience. Which in turn gives them the ability to out bid to fly bigger and higher paying equipment then the more experienced pilot.

 

[BlackTail]

Another windfall for the West pilots.

Well maybe the NTSB investigation into the BUF Continental Express crash will bring awareness to the importance of experience. Maybe the flying public needs to be made aware that the NIC award gives an AWA pilot with 10 years experience higher seniority and credits them with time served then a USA pilot with 20 years experience. Which in turn gives them the ability to out bid to fly bigger and higher paying equipment then the more experienced pilot.

Really??? I am all for DOH but come on... Don't question the experience of west pilots just because of this. Both pilots groups are very professional and offer a wealth of safety and experience. Lets not get petty like this.

 

[73320]

To Piedmont,wopr,pi,cub and all other reasonable eastsiders, and potential prospects. This is a view from the west, not the view but a view. The court ruling today much like the nic was relief, not joy. Many west have empathy for your view of the nic and do not wish to ever bid east. Many west are tired of what the east union has been doing. In a dream world we could have come to an agreement on a solution pre-nic, or relief for you psot nic. That is likely not possible now, but some may be willing. Perhaps the rank and file can take over as Seham, Cleary and new VP Mowery will continually come up for recall from the west based on history/actions. If the nic is it with no relief possible, perhaps we can start a voluntary pilot assistance fund by those of us west selling our east nic bid position back to the east for $100. Off the top of my head that would mean I bid LOS voluntarily if I go east. I will match the $100 and the proceeds go to your Langenham (spelling?) or furloughed pilots. It would be a reconcilliatory gesture and give you a good idea on what kind of possible movenment east you could expect and help fellow pilots. It sounds crazy I know but what have any actions to date produced? As long as we have west vs east as displayed on here we are all DOOMED. I would like to think that east pilots have had enough of missed expectations. Perhaps electing west leaders will get some movement and better outcomes, and you can burden them with the current state of affairs and look for progress/relief. Bottom line if I was an east FO facing the nic I would wait to see what happens if it is implemented before I bailed or assumed I will never move up the list, upgrade etc... I have a 1984 or 85 east bid seniority (cant remeber because I dont care - no disrespect meant by the way) and I never plan on using it. My hope is to slowly move up the west list and I am whole. I do hope we can come together soon and that if it is the nic and nothing but the nic, that the impact is far less than imagined and east pilots become very pissed off that we went through all that we have so far. Thanks again for questioning your (our) leadership, it gives one hope. Good luck to us all!

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

Time to read the transcripts of Jack's testimony.

There was an offer on the table of the Kirby Offer ($122 million) plus another 6-7%. The average Captain pay started at about $150 an hour and ended at $170 an hour.

Take the time to calculate that out over the last 2+ years. Did the east mec leave us standing out in the cold? Did the usapa threat really park us out in the field?

Yahoo, AOL won. Until the group comes together only the lawyers win and LS is laughing all the way to the bank.

How much was spent on legal fees in the last year? Was that money well spent? Was your legal team actually fighting with their hands tied behind their back? Why didn't Steven come save the day? Why didn't Mike save the day, he was there in the front row? Why did Jack Stephan have to testify for them? (Prater's gotta love that one!!)

It's time to start asking some serious questions about the direction that has been taken and really look to see where it all ends up.

My uneducated guess is the those over 60 will not see any movement. I've got 17 to go and I wonder if I will ever see any movement. I hope I'm wrong but if your 60+ wouldn't that extra $20-25K be nice?

Just food for thought.

 

[flyboeing737]

Another windfall for the West pilots.

Well maybe the NTSB investigation into the BUF Continental Express crash will bring awareness to the importance of experience. Maybe the flying public needs to be made aware that the NIC award gives an AWA pilot with 10 years experience higher seniority and credits them with time served then a USA pilot with 20 years experience. Which in turn gives them the ability to out bid to fly bigger and higher paying equipment then the more experienced pilot.

Yea and that 20 year pilot has spent 12 on furlough. How do you know what the prior experience of the 10 year pilot would be?

 

[undercover]

Just my Two Cents……..
Well a jury decided today that USAPA failed in its duty to fairly represent all of its members. USAPA has already said its next course will be to go to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals and, if necessary, the United States Supreme Court. Which they say are the appropriate places for the law to be truly vetted. In an email announcement sent out today USAPA said…and I quote: Given the circumstances, we have a hard time accepting the idea that we encountered truly unbiased impartiality. Although this is a setback, we are very confident that the errors of law we encountered in this venue will be corrected.

How do you think the Judge would feel if he knew that USAPA felt he was....maybe a little unfair and didn't know the law? Judges have a history of not being very friendly if their name is kicked around in anyway shape or form and they...... like pilots are all members of the same boys club….

Then there is this statement: we fully expected and planned for this contingency....isn’t hindsight a wonderful thing.
Another statement: “we are very confident of our ability to prevail eventuallyâ€. Eventually…..now here is a word that means so many things….it’s right up there with: Might be….Could be…..Maybe…..could’a-would’a-should’a…. And who is going to pay for all this? Here is another statement from that email: Our legal team is already working on an expedited appeal and stay of any proposed injunctive relief. Yes I bet they are. I ask again….WHO is going to pay for all this?

I love this statement: In proving the absolute right of a union to bargain over the complete terms of its members’ working agreement. Which members are you talking about the East USAPA’s side…..or the West the “side the east don’t give a damn aboutâ€. You will never prevail….here is just one reason you will not win. You believe that you have pulled the wool over everyone’s eyes, well you have not. Your real intensions are so apparent….they are transparent….even a blind man could see through USAPA’s true intensions.

Please watch your email and the USAPA Web site for further updates….You can be sure of one thing I shall be waiting and watching.

We urge all pilots to continue to show the utmost professionalism, treating your fellow pilots with courtesy and respect. I shall just remain mute to this statement…

Well I have had my say…..isn’t this a great country…..Thank God for Freedom of speech.

 

[eckoa6]

I really wish the west would take this victory more graciously. As a non pilot and as someone who doesn't work for US I have mostly just observed this situation for the past two years and refrained from comment. Now this is coming from someone who is from Arizona, was rooting for the west and in no way thought that any solution involving DOH was fair or equitable. It just seems most of the west posters should sit back and stop trying to cut at the East posters. You are only deepening the divide and that to any logical person seems the exact opposite of what you would want to be doing at this point. Again this is just my opinion, but I'm sure I'm not the only outside observer that feels you guys at this point should try to act with some maturity and humility.