US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 9/19- 9/27..

[Al Legheny]

I just got the Notice to Agency Fee Payers in the mail.

It is date Sept. 9th and objectors have 30 days from the date of the notice to protest the USAPA germane fees calculations.

USAPA claims a 95.8% Germane v. Non-Germane ratio. There is an auditors report attached.

I wonder if there will be a lot of protesters?

 

[nic4us]

Nic,

What you are saying is that USAPA is guilty of disadvantaging the West pilots by not advantaging them first. The damages you claim are the windfall defined.

You are claiming the west pilots are "damaged" by not using the Nicolau list. For that to be true you would have to prove in court that the Nicolau award is not fair and equitable thus producing a denied windfall which you then want to be paid in cash by east pilots.

Good luck with that.

You won't earn any respect with threats. If you want more wealth you will have to earn it by hard work outside the airline industry not by eliminating another pilots seniority and trying to cash in the Nic windfall.

I am hoping for an industry standard contract with fair and equitable seniority provisions that allow east and west pilots to have a productive professional working relationship. Try working with us and not against us to achieve the common goals of improving our profession.

underpants

Underpants,

I truely do not know how to respond to your logic. I do not believe the Nic is a windfall, neither does the arbitrator or the pilot nuetrals, otherwise it would not have been the result. The West does not have to prove a windfall denied, just a failure to perform a duty of fair representation, and we have already done that.

If usapa wishes to negotiate 20+ year F/O payscales, I would agree, we have 20+ year F/Os. If usapa wants to negotiate accelerated 401k payments for pilots over a certain age, sure we all get their eventually. But usapa is not going to be able to throw up fences, or base upgrades on longevity, or any other cockamamie contract provisions that nueter the Nic.

A very important point you are missing is that the Nic belongs to all USAirways pilots. usapa is actually harming both east and west pilots by their continued fight against the Nic. Pilots on both side are getting tired of all the wasted time, effort and money. We will hear what the 9th has to say ( personally I do not think either side will like what we hear ) then I say let Sully fly in PHX, but lets get him and everyone else a raise and some better work rules first.

Once we have gotten past all of this, and usapa is no longer about advancing east interest and nuetering the Nic, then perhaps I will be able to work with you, if I have not retired first. However, consensual solutions means just that, we both have to agree.

 

[hp_fa]

I just got the Notice to Agency Fee Payers in the mail.

It is date Sept. 9th and objectors have 30 days from the date of the notice to protest the USAPA germane fees calculations.

USAPA claims a 95.8% Germane v. Non-Germane ratio. There is an auditors report attached.

I wonder if there will be a lot of protesters?

I've said for awhile, specifically in connection with the Addington case, that I question any apportionment of DFR litigation expenses as a germane expense. In my view they are intra-union expenses and I cannot fathom why dues objectors should have to bear any portion of those expenses.

I know that someone posted what seemed to be a case law justification for it being considered a germane expense but after reading that case I did not think the fact pattern in that case was sufficiently close enough to the fact pattern here to accept that as controlling precedent.

 

[hp_fa]

We will hear what the 9th has to say ( personally I do not think either side will like what we hear ) then I say let Sully fly in PHX, but lets get him and everyone else a raise and some better work rules first.

I wonder how welcome Sully would be in PHX after his explanation of what constitutes integrity during a recent visit to Phoenix.

 

[cleardirect]

Not true....your statement is only a false assumption not found in the Nic award or any court orders. A DOH list will always exist. You can't take away someone's DOH any more than you can take away his birthday. They are historical events that can't be changed.

If you have an advance copy of the future contract approved by all courts, signed by the company and USAPA and ratified by USAirways pilots please share it with the rest of us.

underpants

Please read. The continuing education of the east is getting tiresome. If you chose to remain uneducated stop posting. It only looks foolish.

Paragraph B. A court order referencing the Nicolau award. The seniority rights arising from the Nicolau award. That means that there will be a single system seniority list. If vacancies arise they will be bid by the Nicolau list. If there are furloughs the Nicolau list will be used.

USAPA can not negotiate with the company to furlough by DOH. They can not try and get extra vacation using LOS. The company will maintain one list. It will be the Nicolau list. As people leave the list will be update. A piece of information on that list will be DOH, but will have not control over anything. Just like the Empire guys DOH now. It is there but means nothing.


If anyone thinks that USAPA will be able to negotiate for something else in other parts of the contract needs to understand that is not the case. I hope everyone understands what the word unmodified means. Fences modify the award, conditions modify the award, using LOS or DOH for anything modifies the award.

Document 594 The court injunction.

A. Immediately, and in good faith, make all reasonable efforts to negotiate and
implement a single collective bargaining agreement with US Airways that will
implement the Nicolau Award seniority proposal unmodified, according to its terms;

B. Make all reasonable efforts to support and defend the seniority rights provided
by or arising from the Nicolau Award in negotiations with US Airways; and

C. Not negotiate for separate collective bargaining agreements for the separate
pilot groups, but rather negotiate for a single collective bargaining agreement for both
pilot groups that incorporates the Nicolau Award. This injunction does not restrain
USAPA from pursuing its rights under Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act, consistent
with the previous sentence.

The Court retains jurisdiction to enforce, modify, or dissolve the permanent injunction
portion of this order. The Court retains jurisdiction to adjudicate the named Plaintiffs’
unadjudicated claims for damages and any claims for attorney fees.

 

[flybynite]

Hey...I hate to break up the rant for the day but I have a question for the West Pilots.

What are the trip rigs the company paying you? And are you being paid night premiums? And if so, what is that?

And while I'm at it....is your contract posted somewhere so I can read it? Or is that secret stuff?
🙂

 

[jetjok1]

Wow, I do not know where to start.

I guess I will begin with, who is P......? I checked last weeks thread and the first mention of P.....is in a response where you quoted me so I guess I will answere for P.......

Yes, it seems to have been determined that "date of letter" refers to the postage "date of letter". From that "date of letter" the pilot has 15 days to "remit" payment. That does not mean usapa has to RECEIVE payment within 15 days. If the pilot "remits" payment via pony express and usapa gets it in 6 months oh well!

So we have covered one paragraph in the nine that descibe how the association has to go about enforcing dues payment. Later chapters are quite a bit more specific and actually say within "five (5) calendar days from the date of the pilot's RECEIPT of notice described in sect 29.A.3" or "during the period in which a grievence.....the pilot shall not be discharged from the company nor lose any seniority or longevity rights..." the point is there are a dozens of ways usapa can screw this up, if they actually get someone fired and they had made a mistake look out.



Parker voiced his concern that the company did not think usapa followed the correct procedures and look what happened, no one got fired. As a matter of fact, I do not believe anyone has ever been fired for this, just starting now and treating the next person differently from the "LUCKY 4" as you call them , brings a question of discrimination into the mix.

Mr. Wake? Oh you mean Judge Wake, the Federal Judge who has warned the 9th circuit that usapa relys on subterfuge ( called usapa liars and cheats, ain't that great?)

Nic,

Well, I for one hope you pay something. I respect you and your posts (the only one actually, except for Clear about 20% of the time)
and I hope you pay your dues when presented with your section 29 pay up notice. If not, well, I'll be glad to hold the door open for you and, don't worry, I won't let it hit you on the way out. maybe some day we'll fly together. We would make an awesome team!

 

[Megasnoop]

Incorrect Better check with the higher ups. USAPA is actively trying to fire west pilots. Even after paying USAPA wanted to return the money and fire the pilots. Cleary wanted a scalp.

If you say so. But don't bet on it.

BTW shooting an airplane will get you fired also.

If you say so. But don't bet on it.

I am disappointed. Your information is usually better this. Maybe compliance on the east side but west compliance is no where near 100%

If you say so. But don't bet on it.

How can USAPA dump 500 section 29’s if USAPA is near 100% compliance? Inquiring minds want to know. B)

That statement from Bular and Hogg over 6 months ago, but they were waiting out the Suzie arb. She lost, paid up, the word got out fast. Compliance on S-29 notices IS 100%. Others are falling in line. Don't trust your job to what others say they're doing about not paying dues, especially if they're junior to you. Same old hashing teeth. No new territory to cover for a while. Time to just sit back and lurk for a while. Posting where I use my name and have reasoned dicsussions with West pilots (maybe even you) who do the same.

 

[cleardirect]

Hey...I hate to break up the rant for the day but I have a question for the West Pilots.

What are the trip rigs the company paying you? And are you being paid night premiums? And if so, what is that?

And while I'm at it....is your contract posted somewhere so I can read it? Or is that secret stuff?
🙂

A copy of the contract is on wings. Look under flt ops, left side pilot labor agreements. The formatting did not come out but this is the section. No night premiums.

Section 4

B.
PAY AND CREDIT
1. Except as provided in Subsections 4.B.2. and
4.B.3., a Pilot shall be paid and credited a minimum
of the following for each pairing, whichever
is greater:
a.
Five hours and fifteen minutes (5:15) for a
single duty period or the average of five hours
and fifteen minutes (5:15) for a multiple duty
period. For any pairing that contains a scheduled
layover of twenty-four hours (24:00) or
greater, each scheduled layover period of
twenty-four hours (24:00) shall be considered
a duty period for purposes of this Subsection
4.B.1.a. (e.g.: a pairing with two duty
periods of flying with a 48-hour scheduled
layover in between would pay a minimum of
21:00 hours of pay and credit; a pairing with
7:00 scheduled credit hours during the first
duty period, followed by a 24:00 scheduled
layover, followed by 8:00 scheduled credit
hours would pay a minimum of 15:45 pay
and credit);
b.
Scheduled block, as shown on the original
pairing, or actual Block-to-Block, whichever
is greater;
c.
A minimum of one hour (1:00) for each two
hours (2:00) during a duty period; or
d.
A minimum of one hour (1:00) for each three
hours and forty-five minutes (3:45) that the
Pilot is scheduled to be, or actually remains,
away from the Pilot’s domicile.
2. If a lineholder’s pairing encroaches onto a con-
4-1
secutive pairing as a result of irregular operations, the Pilot shall receive not less than the originally scheduled or actual pairing credit of the two
(2) combined pairings, whichever is greater.
3. For split pairings, pay and credit for the unaffected day(s) shall be as set forth in Subsection
4.B.1. and Subsection 25.U.3.c. if applicable. On the day(s) of the pairing on which the pairing was split, the average and minimum duty period guarantee in Subsection 4.B.1.a. shall not apply. This Subsection 4.B.3. shall not apply to split pairings involuntarily assigned to a lineholder Pilot or assigned by the Company to a reserve Pilot.
4.
Any involuntary or incentive assignment pay or other additional pay as provided for in this Agreement shall be paid, not credited, in addition to Subsection 4.B.1.
5.
A Pilot who operates a pairing that reports in one
(1) bid period and releases in the following bidperiod shall be credited with the hours actually flown in the respective bid period.


C. DUTY RIG
A Pilot shall receive one hour (1:00) of pay and credit for each two hours (2:00) during a duty period.
D. TRIP RIG
A Pilot shall receive one hour (1:00) of pay and credit for each three hours and forty-five minutes (3:45) that the Pilot is scheduled to be, or actually remains, away from the Pilot’s domicile.
E. LONG RATE RIG
For any scheduled, rescheduled or rerouted pairing that contains a scheduled layover of twenty-four hours
(24:00) or greater, each scheduled layover period of twenty-four hours (24:00) shall be considered a duty period.

 

[flybynite]

Thanks, Clear.

 

[traderjake]

Thank you USAPA supporters for making me work longer hours for less money because you refuse to give up your fantasy of rewriting the seniority list.

 

[Captain Underpants]

A piece of information on that list will be DOH, but will have not control over anything. Just like the Empire guys DOH now. It is there but means nothing.
I hope everyone understands what the word unmodified means.

Not true. Empire pilots would be furloughed by their Empire DOH not their Kagel seniority. They also have Empire DOH for bidding aircraft and trips in their original equipment and base which they used until their SYR base closed. They use Empire DOH for some contract seniority provisions and Kagel award seniority for others.

Unmodified means unmodified. You then go on to list all the ways you want the Nicolau award to be modified and the contract to be unmodified. Problem is it doesn't say what you want it to say. You want extra seniority rights that Nic did not give you and you want the contract to be unmodifiable.

The reason Wake did not declare the contract to be unmodifiable is that would obviously be an illegal court order.

underpants

 

[700UW]

Underpants,

Please show me where we are flying the Fokker 28s since that is all Empire had so how can they use their Empire seniority to bid on equipment that no longer exists?

Empire guys got screwed, several of their former pilots are my friends.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Underpants,

Please show me where we are flying the Fokker 28s since that is all Empire had so how can they use their Empire seniority to bid on equipment that no longer exists?

Empire guys got screwed, several of their former pilots are my friends.

I agree the Empire pilots got screwed. I am hoping and fully support USAPA trying to unscrew them although unfortunately many of our pilots disagree.

underpants

 

[cleardirect]

Not true. Empire pilots would be furloughed by their Empire DOH not their Kagel seniority. They also have Empire DOH for bidding aircraft and trips in their original equipment and base which they used until their SYR base closed. They use Empire DOH for some contract seniority provisions and Kagel award seniority for others.

Unmodified means unmodified. You then go on to list all the ways you want the Nicolau award to be modified and the contract to be unmodified. Problem is it doesn't say what you want it to say. You want extra seniority rights that Nic did not give you and you want the contract to be unmodifiable.

The reason Wake did not declare the contract to be unmodifiable is that would obviously be an illegal court order.

underpants

I am not familiar with the Kagel award. But an educated guess on my part. The things that you just listed in the first paragraph. Would be condition and restrictions that Kagel put into his award. Therefore any C&R that Kagel put in would become part of the contract. Nicolau put only one C&R in his award. Read closely it says one more time. That is why there will be no fences, not in the Nicolau. If it is not in the Nicolau it will not be in the contract.

A. the Nicolau Award seniority proposal unmodified

B. seniority rights provided by or arising from the Nicolau Award

Not sure what you are talking about in your second paragraph. There is no modification to the Nicolau. Those are things that the east wants changed in the contract that would modify the Nicolau award or system seniority. Placing a C&R in the contract that modifies Nicolau is not allowed. No extra seniority rights. Just the list that Nicolau decided. The list that both sides argued for.

The Nicolau award created a list. That list controls seniority and all rights that come from seniority. Furloughs for example are done by the system seniority list (see paragraph B of the injunction). If USAPA tried to negotiate that furloughs would be done by LOS. That would be a modification to the list. That would be a violation of the injunction.

Stop trying to project what happened with a different merger and what happened with this one. Each merger is different with a different set of facts.