USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[PHX-F/A]

I did read the transcripts, all of them.......I don't think that you can make the statement that the judge allowed such latitude to both sides and was very careful in following the law....unless you are a lawyer.

USAPA will appeal and you have no idea how it will turn out. Nor do I. Stranger things have happened in life than having a lawsuit overturned on appeal. I suggest you wait to see what happens when the expedited appeal is taken because you won't know until then. Nobody will.

Forgive me if this has already been asked, but what would average time frame be for an expedited appeal process?

 

[nic4us]

Another windfall for the West pilots.

Well maybe the NTSB investigation into the BUF Continental Express crash will bring awareness to the importance of experience. Maybe the flying public needs to be made aware that the NIC award gives an AWA pilot with 10 years experience higher seniority and credits them with time served then a USA pilot with 20 years experience. Which in turn gives them the ability to out bid to fly bigger and higher paying equipment then the more experienced pilot.

You are making the mistake of assuming the east pilots have more experience.

 

[prechilill]

I will say, thank God it's FINALLY over. Get me a contract and get me off LOA 93.

I think we all deserve to be above sub-standard wages and benefits. Three years wasted... And judging from a few diehards on here they are more than happy to continue utilizing blunt force trauma pounding their cranium into a brick wall. Interesting animals.

 

[nostradamus]

It was very clear reviewing day nine transcripts that the defendants were setting up their argument fot the Appeals Court. Labor Law is a complicated matter.


Appeals Process

 

[hp_fa]

Obviously a lot of posting has gone one today. Rather than make a post with my impressions as in previous days, I am going to address some posts that have been posted since the verdict was received.

It has been a long journey to this point. But we now have a final resolution to our arbitrated seniority. We have come to the end of our disagreement.

------------------------

The arbitration award was released over two years ago. Even though some may feel that the west has won. The reality is no one has won anything. In fact we have all lost along the way. That is because we are right back to where we were two years ago. We must put the past behind us and move forward together. Together to get a leading contract. Together to fight management and get the improvements that we all deserve.
We ask you to continue to be the polite professionals that you have been throughout this process.

Xxxx Yyyyyyyy
PHX communications Chairman

Two thoughts. First, the resolution is not final. The forum simply changes to the 9th Circuit should the Defendant choose to appeal rather than let this go and move forward. Second, as stated you are in many ways back where you were, just poorer via dues and donations that paid for lawyers to fight each other rather than fight the Company.

Actually, the post by Aquagreen37 of the message from Leonidas, LLC struck the right message in my opinion.

(Quoting a USAPA communication)

The Addington case ended today with the jury deciding that USAPA failed in its duty to fairly represent all of its members. Today’s decision, while disappointing, was not unexpected. Since we were required to argue our case with limited time and evidence and were hamstrung by questionable rulings and incorrect instructions, USAPA, quite literally, fought this battle with both hands tied behind its back. Given the circumstances, we have a hard time accepting the idea that we encountered truly unbiased impartiality. Although this is a setback, we are very confident that the errors of law we encountered in this venue will be corrected.

Unfortunately, I expected this response. This has been the repeated response of all the folks who held positions of power when adverse rulings were received, whether they were ALPA or USAPA. First it was Nicolau, now it is Judge Wake and a bunch of home cooking from an Arizona jury. At what point does East become responsible for its own failure to agree with or otherwise accept anything other than DOH? Of course you can appeal. Your paid lawyers will be more than happy to accept more money to advance the East position because they both get paid and they get a chance to dig themselves out of the hole they have dug for themselves as far as being a going concern as a labor law firm to future clients.

Think about this a second in all seriousness. Jack Stephan and the East MEC interviewed and/or hired at least three different labor law firms as established by a Prater letter to Stephan. Steven Bradford interviewed at least three law firms seeking counsel for USAPA. Does anyone actually think they were looking for an objective opinion rather than a firm who told them what they wanted to hear? Or, contrary to the advice of all the others, or a firm that told them what they wanted to hear in exchange for considerable employment via being general counsel and litigation counsel.

Didn't USAPA run on a campaign of allowing everyone to vote? It is time for the membership to demand a vote on where you go from here.

Let's pretend, for a second, that USAPA appeals and wins. If USAPA gets a complete victory at the 9th Circuit the case will be Reversed and Remanded to the trial court to comply with the Opinion of the 9th Circuit. They will **not** instruct the case to be dismissed. The best possible result would be that they order a new trial so a significant part of the costs would have to be re-incurred. Also, if reversed and remanded, the Plaintiffs would get to call Steven Bradford as a witness, which did not happen this time and Bradford would not have helped USAPA's case at all. If you believe that he would have I have some nice swamp land for you to purchase.

(Quoting a USAPA communication)

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals and, if necessary, the United States Supreme Court, are the appropriate places for the law to be truly vetted. While USAPA would have, of course, preferred to prevail in the current setting (allowing the pilot group to come together and work towards an improved contract), we fully expected and planned for this contingency. Again, given the facts of law, we are very confident of our ability to prevail eventually, in proving the absolute right of a union to bargain over the complete terms of its members’ working agreement. Having so planned, our legal team is already working on an expedited appeal and stay of any proposed injunctive relief.

Yeah, right, OK. Let me get that swamp land ready for sale.

Many of you have written that I have attempted to be objective. Believe it or not I am still trying to be just as objective. I simply think that continuing on this path does not advance anyone's cause except the attorneys that held opinions that were out of the mainstream of prevailing labor law and found a client willing to pay for those opinions and services which, to this date, have never borne any fruit and simply hurt both groups and saved the company from paying wage increases to it's pilots.

 

[hp_fa]

Forgive me if this has already been asked, but what would average time frame be for an expedited appeal process?

As I sit here right now I am not aware of any expedited process that exists for this case under present law and procedure. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. That said I would expect an 11-14 month time frame for any such appeal to be resolved, assuming that the 9th Circuit accepts the appeal.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Another windfall for the West pilots.

Well maybe the NTSB investigation into the BUF Continental Express crash will bring awareness to the importance of experience. Maybe the flying public needs to be made aware that the NIC award gives an AWA pilot with 10 years experience higher seniority and credits them with time served then a USA pilot with 20 years experience. Which in turn gives them the ability to out bid to fly bigger and higher paying equipment then the more experienced pilot.

Geez, using a tragedy to make an argument? That is low. You guys need to get off this feeling that HP pilots are a bunch of pimply faced teens, it really makes you guys look so petty and childish. Is this all you have? Last time I checked, AWA pilots and planes had a perfect safety record, so you really are just whining.

 

[N924PS]

Geez, using a tragedy to make an argument? That is low. You guys need to get off this feeling that HP pilots are a bunch of pimply faced teens, it really makes you guys look so petty and childish. Is this all you have? Last time I checked, AWA pilots and planes had a perfect safety record, so you really are just whining.

Well, almost perfect anyway:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20020828-1

 

[EastUS]

I will say, thank God it's FINALLY over. Get me a contract and get me off LOA 93.

Congrats to the west's legal team. One can never know what will come of any courtroom proceeding, especially those involving juries.

I hardly imagine anything to be "FINALLY over", nor should any among the even marginally rational.

There's a lot more at stake for your/our junior comrades out east than even two times your "get me" ....although those expressed sentiments completely fail to surprise. For the very reason that this isn't any issue of "get me" for myself; I'll never vote in favor of any contract that includes the nic abomination, and I'll happily substitute that "NEVER" for your "FINALLY" at the present time. How all of this will eventually work out is anyone's guess.

 

[EastUS]

If this still doesn't go USAPA's way in the appeals, do we really think this is a case the Supreme court would even hear?

Who can now even possibly know?

 

[Megasnoop]

I will say, thank God it's FINALLY over. Get me a contract and get me off LOA 93.

Over? Maybe. BPR will decide. I expect appeal while we get back to the table and attempt to get a ratifiable contract. Much depends on the judge. A reasonable remedy like the one he thunk out loud might be a breakthrough. But anything resembling the damage demands by the West might just get our backs up to the point where we have to see this through using whatever appeals it takes. For sure, if USAPA goes the APA route, they will lose support. Despite all the west insults, theyr smarter than that. They will follow the letter and spirit of the judges ruling.

Appeals arent all that expensive, compared to trial and according to an old railroad case, they are germane union expense, can be assessed, even assessments to non-members. No point throwing in the towel after what weve spent, unless BPR can live with the judges ruling. Meanwhile, IMO we will have to negotiate in good faith with Section 22 NIC while we appeal. I can see a lot of things coming together in about 12 months: Appeal results, a TA and pay increase arbitration.

If a TA passes, you get off LOA93. BPR will decide, but they better do some serious polling and road shows to find out exactly where we (the rank and file) line up. Hopefully members will be honest and comment with brains, not emotions. steve

 

[nic4us]

Well, almost perfect anyway:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20020828-1

924PS

That was our second or third hull loss. But as you can see from the report, as with our prior accidents, fatalities=0. I think that is what HPearlyretiree was refering to.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

924PS

That was our second or third hull loss. But as you can see from the report, as with our prior accidents, fatalities=0. I think that is what HPearlyretiree was refering to.

Yes, and I am not trying to dredge up any animosity over crashes, but this garbage about "they were just teenagers" really comes off poorly.

I step into any plane run by a major airline, I know I'm getting quality and experience.

Of course, seniority in and of itself really isn't fair to the better pilots out there, but I realize that its kinda hard to do performance reviews on thousands of pilots out there. But, in the real, non union world, that is how people are rewarded and how they move up in a company.

 

[Richard]

Folks,

The verdict is in, what's done is done. Apparently there will be an appeal.

So the discussion goes on....in a new thread.

AND the discussion of safety and throwing accidents into the discussion is NOT appropriate, and it stops now.