US Pilots Labor Thread 1/21 to 1/27

[Pi brat]

You easties are so blind it's incredible. I just had the pleasure of speaking with a in east 320 captain, while discussing the Nic. he informs me that the arbitration should have been done just like the dal/nwa ( i.e. 3 arbitrators) and that the outcome would have been much better. I laughed and asked if he had seen the dal/nwa list, he informed me he had not but that it was much better handled. So I pull out my laptop and show him the dal/nwa results and how they are IDENTICAL to awa/us, he was floored he had no idea that it had gone relative position, just like awa/us. It blows my mind, grown man, smart, capable of graduating a military academy, yet so delusional that can't even coprehend a simple document because it doesn't agree with his version of the world.

AWA/US was not relative position. It was a hybrid staple/ratio/staple.

I haven't seen the DAL/NWA list. Did it have large chunks of one airline on both ends?

 

[Pi brat]

AWA/US was not relative position. It was a hybrid staple/ratio/staple.

I haven't seen the DAL/NWA list. Did it have large chunks of one airline on both ends?

Another thing. St. Nic said that one of the reasons for his list was that US pilots would get such a great increase in income. The DAL/NWA pilots got that ahead of time. US pilots have seen nothing except the company stonewalling a contract.

 

[Crzipilot]

Fodase,

No doubt, there are many of those on the east. As I'm sure there are a handful of those on the west. They show up, do their job, go home, don't really know the ins and outs of what really is going on around them.


Jim,

I don't think I stated I was told, that this condition or restriction, or those put forth by USAPA would completely protect the west. Herein lies where, if the west were to participate, and ensure they had protections it might work.

So what protections or fences would work to protect the west side?

 

[Pi brat]

Fodase,

No doubt, there are many of those on the east. As I'm sure there are a handful of those on the west. They show up, do their job, go home, don't really know the ins and outs of what really is going on around them.


Jim,

I don't think I stated I was told, that this condition or restriction, or those put forth by USAPA would completely protect the west. Herein lies where, if the west were to participate, and ensure they had protections it might work.

So what protections or fences would work to protect the west side?

PMJI, there are no C&Rs possible that will make up for the windfall loss with DOH for the westies.

 

[Crzipilot]

PIbrat, uhmm..not really comprehending what your saying there?

 

[Pi brat]

PIbrat, uhmm..not really comprehending what your saying there?

The Nic award was such a huge win for the bottom 70% of the west list that there is no way that DOH with C&Rs can close to what the Nic award gave them. It's like winning a million dollar lottery and having the state come to you and asking you to take $10,000 and a life time reduction in taxes. Not bad, but not a million bucks either, and they had the winning ticket!

 

[Megasnoop]

My questions ARE relevant. I am willing to bet, however, that if our argument was decided by an arbitrator and it didn't agree with your world view that you would diregard it anyway.

And you would do likewise, Im sure, tazz. but your right:

Our bantering is a colossal waste of time. Judges" decisions will come soon enough. I am looking forward to that time.

TOTAL waste of time since this is all going to resolve in court. But not soon enough for your side. Im looking forwar to the result as well, however it turns out. Dont bet it will turn out your way. Im not betting it will turn out mine. Getting back to your questions about MDA and ALPO dumping an inaccurate list on our Merger Committee. ALPO was already fighting the MDAers on a DFR lawsuit. If ALPO had passed a list to our merger committee that included MDA pilots as being active, that would have made MDA pilots case. ALPO conflict of interest. Since ALPO controls all its MECs, ALPO had total control of what list the MC used. If either the MEC or the MC had changed the list, ALPO would have simply removed the MEC, gotten in their cronies and presented the ALPO sanitized list. But ALPO had no worries there, since the MEC voting majority wasnt going to rock the ALPO gravy train.

Since you think your Qs are relevant, let me ask you this one:

If a pilot was an active member in the PHL LC, if he paid dues to ALPO with his dues receipt showing him as a PHL LC active member, if his ALPO status was "active," if he could vote in the PHL elections, if he could be a committee member/chairman in the PHL LEC, and if he actually held office as a PHL LEC officer (Sec/Tres), if his pay checks said "US Airways," was he actively on the seniority list?

I know its a long question, but only needs a simple YES/NO answer. BTW, the "ifs" above, they actually all happened. Snooper

 

[BoeingBoy]

So what protections or fences would work to protect the west side?

That's the problem with relying on C&R's - they can't cover every possible eventuality - and why it's important to construct the basic list so it keeps most everyone in their job with their combined seniority number (at the time of the PID under ALPA policy - USAPA seems to have adopted an "at any particular time we choose" method of determining who held what job). Then add the minimum C&R's to cover such things as fleet differences.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

I know its a long question, but only needs a simple YES/NO answer. BTW, the "ifs" above, they actually all happened. Snooper

No, not necessarily (I know that's more than YES/NO but your question as worded could apply to any two PHL A330 pilots as well).

Look where the airline is today - two separate groups of pilots, working for two separate divisions of the same company, under two separate contracts, with two separate fleets, all under one certificate. Does that mean that the pilots are all active East pilots and no West pilots exist? Does it mean that there are only West pilots and no East pilots exist?

Jim

 

[des nudo]

No, not necessarily (I know that's more than YES/NO but your question as worded could apply to any two PHL A330 pilots as well).

Look where the airline is today - two separate groups of pilots, working for two separate divisions of the same company, under two separate contracts, with two separate fleets, all under one certificate. Does that mean that the pilots are all active East pilots and no West pilots exist? Does it mean that there are only West pilots and no East pilots exist?

Jim

Jim,

The yard needs cutting, the sink is leaking, the toilet is running, the roof leaks, the mower won't start, ...(fill in where appropriate)

Your need to be "involved" is both troublesome and curious. And your clear slant towards all things ALPA is noted. You know full well after your tenure at AAA how things became the way they are, and yet you ask open-ended and slanted questions just to be in the middle of an arguement that doesn't affect you. I suggest therapy. But, hey, it's a free world....

Last I checked, there are TWO distinct pilot groups on the property: One side conributes to the bottom line more and earns less (east)
and the other side costs more and earns less for the company (west)...which they brag about daily.

What should we discuss next?....boxers or briefs?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Your need to be "involved" is both troublesome and curious.

Maybe you should take your own suggestion regarding therapy. For someone that left US you also seem to have a need to be "involved" - not surprisingly you don't consider that need either troublesome or curious. Seems it's one's views on the seniority issue that results in one's interest being troublesome or not.

Last I checked, there are TWO distinct pilot groups on the property:

My point exactly - the current situation is the same as that which existed with the MDA pilots except the current situation deals with two mainline groups and not mainline/MDA.

One side conributes to the bottom line more and earns less (east)
and the other side costs more and earns less for the company (west)...which they brag about daily.

Old argument that's overly simplistic, but maybe simplicity is what you need.

What should we discuss next?....boxers or briefs?

I could care less which you prefer.

Jim

 

[28L_or_10R?]

This just appeared on Jane Wells' "Funny Business" on cnbc.com:

"REAL US AIRWAYS PILOTS"

More fallout from my post on United Airlines' [UAUA 11.04 -1.07 (-8.84%) ] joint venture with Aer Lingus, and whether the allegedly "outsourced" pilots will be as qualified as US Airways [LCC 6.71 -0.99 (-12.86%) ] Capt. Chesley Sullenberger, who may be "too expensive" in today's environment.

We heard from a few US Airways pilots who say they're hardly "expensive", as they're retirement and pay have been cut dramatically in the merger with America West. By the way, full disclosure, I'm married to a former TWA pilot who went through the merger with American, and, well, I hear a lot about seniority lists and mergers. A lot.

US Airways (America West) Capt. Jack has had it with "cry babies": "Oh please, let's talk about the 'Real US Airways Pilots'. The guys who aided in destroying their former company through extremely high pay and benefits demands in the past. Who aided their company in becoming bankrupt twice and who were ultimately saved by the 'less experienced' (gotta love that one) pilots and employees of America West Airlines. (At least the 'less experienced America West pilots don't crash airplanes on a regular basis?) The 'Real US Airways Pilots' have been a bunch of cry babies their entire careers. After America West came in and bailed the company out of bankruptcy through an alleged merger, the two pilot groups, who were represented by the same union, agreed to Federal Binding Arbitration. This arbitration would determine the combined seniority list of the two, now merged, carriers. The 'Real US Airways Pilots' were not happy with the Arbitrated list, as it doesn't further 'prop up' their failed careers, at the expense of a group that saved their bacon from liquidation. The 'Real US Airways Pilots' then took their ball and went home, cried and used their larger numbers to form a new 'let's pretend we're a union'. They are continuing to attempt to pass off the Federally agreed to, Final and Binding List, as null and void. This process isn't going especially well for the 'Real US Airways Pilots' so now they cry and complain that 'we're the lowest paid major airline pilots in the industry.' If fate would have actually occurred, their low pay would have been much much lower, like zero, in liquidation. The America West Pilot group and all members of society believe that the 'Real US Airways Pilots' are simply SCABS. They should apologize to the America West Pilots for their unprofessional actions and then say, 'Thank you'. 'Thank you for saving us from a certain death in a difficult industry.' With all that said, maybe the 'Real US Airways Pilots' should simply SUCK IT UP, and do the right thing for once? Do it before their miserable careers come to an end?"

Abba-dabba-doo...

 

[Pi brat]

This just appeared on Jane Wells' "Funny Business" on cnbc.com:


Abba-dabba-doo...

Captain Jack says:

"Oh please, let's talk about the 'Real US Airways Pilots'. The guys who aided in destroying their former company through extremely high pay and benefits demands in the past. "

Wow! Way to go, snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. For once the airline pilot profession gets some good press and "Captain Jack" has to try and mess it up. But it is all about him. Maybe you have been over paid "Captain Jack", but I haven't. This proves that you guys can whine about anything.

 

[nostradamus]

can't even coprehend a simple document.................

 

[nic4us]

The Nic award was such a huge win for the bottom 70% of the west list that there is no way that DOH with C&Rs can close to what the Nic award gave them. It's like winning a million dollar lottery and having the state come to you and asking you to take $10,000 and a life time reduction in taxes. Not bad, but not a million bucks either, and they had the winning ticket!

Since we cannot seem to leave the lotto comparisons alone.

A better analogy of what is going on would be.

I won the Arizona lottery and it paid 1 million dollars.

You won the Pennsylvania lottery and it paid 1 million dollars.

Your buddy won the North Carolina lottery and it paid 1 million dollars.

But the million you won is not enough for you, so you and your buddy come after me knowing I have a million and try to take it from me. You then tell me it is okay you do not want the million just 10 payments of 100k.

No matter what restrictions you place on your theft, it is still stealing.