US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 7/14-7/21 NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[LSS]

"QUOTE (HPDriver @ Jul 17 2009, 01:14 AM)
You missed what I posted. I understand there is no bumping once you get your seat. Point is, when a vacancy does open up, a west pilot will take that vacancy and settle in at his Nic position - which will more than likely be higher up. So with all the west pilots sliding in above east pilots, you can expect to stay at that particular bid position for a very long time. You'll stay a captain, but a very junior captain for a long time."

Ahh yes...WINDFALLS. You've got to love them. This is EXACTLY why this Captain will vote NO forever!

Sounds like a huge windfall to me too... and the company will never thow enough money at this pilot group to entice the majority of the east, except the diehard ALPA sympathizers, to ratify a joint contract. I'm with you A320 Driver, and I'm a captain too!

 

[Hawkhunter]

Refresh my memory. What was the west's compromise position again, during negotiations or at Wye River?

Agrees that a binding arbitration decision can be successfully challenged in this case.

Exactly, the West "compromise" was to put over half the East non furloughed pilots behind "save Dave". One heck of a compromise. You might get the Nick but you wont enjoy flying with us. Keep drooling.

 

[Megasnoop]

Ahh yes...WINDFALLS. You've got to love them. This is EXACTLY why this Captain will vote NO forever! A320 Driver <_<

As an East FO/IRO, all I can say is thank you for your solidarity, sir.

http://bapwild.com/blog/?cat=11

This litigation will doubtless continue to drag on for some time.

Spot on. As fast as we might push it, the 9th moves at its own sped. Meanwhile, we’ll get our $35 M (BK notwithstanding) and the appeal will drag on as well, no fault of ours. You got to admit Hate, these guys got some real imagination. You got to wonder who Harper’s going to get that ruling from. Overturning 100 years of labor law? I don’t think so.

Uhh, it has nothing to do with your attorney. It's a hostile environment because your case sucks.

That’s quite professional comment, Clue. I think I’ll wait the 9th’s ruling.

Look at the last few hearing transcripts--he's only allowing the latitude he is to please the 9th. I think USAPA is going to be in for somewhat of a shock with the 9th circus if the expectation is overturning Wake on anything of substance....

Yeah, right. Thanks, counselor. So Wake’s rulings are geared only to the 9th? You really believe that? And if we lose? Ok. We add the Nic to the TA. And with LOA84 pay rates, it has what chance of passing?

I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
Yogi Berra

 

[Hawkhunter]

Cluebyfour

You missed what I posted.  I understand there is no bumping once you get your seat.  Point is, when a vacancy does open up, a west pilot will take that vacancy and settle in at his Nic position - which will more than likely be higher up.  So with all the west pilots sliding in above east pilots, you can expect to stay at that particular bid position for a very long time.  You'll stay a captain, but a very junior captain for a long time.
[/quote]

And that is not a Windfall? So what do we have to lose? Why wouldnt we want to drag this on? You just said that the West will come East and steal our job. Do you get it now? Cant wait to cash in on that lotto ticket can you? This Captain votes no.

 

[wopr21]

, you east pilots will be stuck in your junior captain positions flying reserve for the rest of your careers.

You finally understand the windfall and the true reality of the Nic and why we must protect ourselves.

Retirements will start happening sooner than you think. Not to many I know are going to 65. There is to much life to live.

Look ....most of us will be gone here in about 10-12 years, then you can have all the Nic you want.

A lot of us have moved backwards again in this last bid. Some loosing captain positions, some going back to reserve and some going to the 190. As you can see its hard for us to see a 10 year HP guy take what we have earned after 23+ years.

Keeping your position you brought to the merger, then moving up a DOH list , getting the opportunity to fly a widebody to a foreign destination ( which you could never do at HP ) sounds like a good deal to me.

Who knows there even may be some long haul flying in PHX for you one day.

wopr

 

[Megasnoop]

You missed what I posted. I understand there is no bumping once you get your seat. Point is, when a vacancy does open up, a west pilot will take that vacancy and settle in at his Nic position - which will more than likely be higher up. So with all the west pilots sliding in above east pilots, you can expect to stay at that particular bid position for a very long time. You'll stay a captain, but a very junior captain for a long time.


And that is not a Windfall? So what do we have to lose? Why wouldnt we want to drag this on? You just said that the West will come East and steal our job. Do you get it now? Cant wait to cash in on that lotto ticket can you?

Hunter, when you can write better and be understood, maybe you'll get some responses. Right now, we don't have a clue-by-four what you're saying.

If you don't know where you are going, you might wind up someplace else.
Yogi Berra

 

[Hawkhunter]

[ Keeping your position you brought to the merger, then moving up a DOH list , getting the opportunity to fly a widebody to a foreign destination ( which you could never do at HP )  sounds like a good deal to me.

Who knows there even may be some long haul flying in PHX for you one day.

wopr
[/quote]

Thats not good enough for them. They want it now over our dead bodies.

 

[hp_fa]

That is because whether the list can be implemented under the terms of the transition agreement constitutes a “minor disputeâ€￾ over the interpretation of that agreement, and the federal court has no jurisdiction over that dispute. And since the plaintiffs did not allege any violation of the DFR in the making of that transition agreement (which was not negotiated by USAPA), but only in USAPA’s negotiation of a new, combined collective bargaining agreement, the federal court cannot rely on the jury’s finding of a DFR violation to exercise jurisdiction over the transition agreement. In addition, US Airways was not a party to the lawsuit, so the federal court likely lacks jurisdiction over the airline to order its implementation of the seniority list.

This litigation will doubtless continue to drag on for some time.[/b]

I am not sure that I agree with this. I'm not saying that it couldn't be correct, but I have doubts. I'll explain.

The Addington case is a hybrid case that sounds, for the purpose of the injunction and the DFR, in equity. Court's have broad leeway in fashioning equitable remedies once the court has determined that jurisdiction is proper and that one or more remedies are proper based on the evidence that has been presented to the court. Until the injunction is issued I am not sure what Judge Wake will eventually do in the form of remedies, but he has been mindful of jurisdiction as he considered this case.

I have no doubt at all that the appellant will argue jurisdictional issues in the appeal. However, this case now has a proven DFR violation (which is exceedingly rare) and I seriously doubt that the 9th will find that Judge Wake made reversible error(s).

By the way your statement contains a glaring factual error. The Company is indeed a party to the suit. They were dismissed from actual wrongdoing very early on in the case, but they were never entirely dismissed from the case. That is how Judge Wake compelled their attendance on two days notice for the hearing that took place yesterday.

 

[Hawkhunter]

Hunter, when you can write better and be understood, maybe you'll get some responses. Right now, we don't have a clue-by-four what you're saying.

If you don't know where you are going, you might wind up someplace else.
Yogi Berra

Dang quote boxes! Its not the writing its my computer skills.

 

[HPDriver]

Ahh yes...WINDFALLS. You've got to love them. This is EXACTLY why this Captain will vote NO forever!


A320 Driver <_<

And that's your prerogative. No one here disputes the fact that you can't force someone to vote FOR anything, but you do pay a price. With the east's S6 rights done away with (just like SB and USAPA did away with the west's S6 rights), no hope for the appeal, and no chance for snapbacks, your no vote keeps you working under LOA93 indefinitely.

Now coming from a group of pilots that brought LOA93 on themselves (I believe you were one of those that spearheaded that) I have little doubt that a TA, when presented, will pass. The now infamous "weekend reflection" letter more than supports what I'm writing.

The Nic is a part of your career and is not going away. Its just a matter of when, not if.

As for west pilots sliding in above east pilots, it will happen. But it will also happen out here in PHX with east pilots moving in about west pilots. It'll take a while for the dust to settle, but even Salamat's report (which was put together by the east) stated a delay of not more than 22 months in the worse case scenario.

So is it worth the financial pain of giving up all that money? I'm guessing for a big number of east pilots the answer is "not any more."

Too much money has been spent by USAPA on litigation when it could have gone towards negotiating a contract. Per the LM-2 and adding a few months to the amounts, USAPA is well over $1M in attorney fees paid for Addington and RICO.

And you guys still want to go to the 9th - yikes on the $$.

Power on if you must, but you're spinning your wheels.

And understand, you have alot more room to reduce (fleet wise) on the east than we do on the west so don't count on us taking the brunt of the next round of furloughs. Any relief that USAPA tries to provide the company in that area will be met with another DFR.

Good luck figuring out your next strategy. If your lawyers perform like they did yesterday, we'll see a TA very soon.

 

[HPDriver]

Yes: it would cost the company money. He won't do it.

Plus he'd be treading on the NMB's territory.

 

[HPDriver]

Keeping your position you brought to the merger, then moving up a DOH list...

WOPR,

Just wondering what position the east pilots that were on furlough brought to the merger?

I wonder how they ended up in seats above west pilots that were actively flying on property.

 

[HPDriver]

Oh, Brer Bear, please don’t throw me in that briar patch! RE-READ LOA93. The pay concessions end on January 1, 2010. 18% pay increase. We’ll have to grieve it (if we’re not in BK), but its worth it for all of us to wait out both the grievance and the 9th.



You really don’t get it, do you. Because you have 1/4 the pilots turning age 60-65 between now and 2012, then 1/6 between 2013 and 2018, as long as we have 2 contracts, the majority of upgrades go east and ALL the widebody upgrades go East. If you can process a different scenario, we’re all ears.

Even Napoleon had his Watergate. Yogi Berra

The sooner you grasp the fact that your pay will not change in February, the sooner we can mover forward.

You think your pilot group is going to wait that long under LOA93 payrates to capture upgrades!?!?

Thanks for the chuckle.

 

[HPDriver]

As an East FO/IRO, all I can say is thank you for your solidarity, sir.

Ahh yes, solidarity from the guy who wrote the "weekend reflection" letter.

 

[HPDriver]

So who cares what happens to S-6? We can’t even agree on the costing models, much less costs. There's no TA anywhere near the horizon. And BTW, Kirby sid he wouldn't get to a TA as long as the Addington verdict is on appeal.

You'd be amazed at how fast things can change.

I think maybe “nowhereâ€￾ is where we want to be right now, at least until the 9th speaks.

Thanks for catching my typing errors. But hey, if that's all you have now then have at it.

The pay concessions end on January 1, 2010. 18% pay increase.

Talk about broken records.

You really don’t get it, do you. Because you have 1/4 the pilots turning age 60-65 between now and 2012, then 1/6 between 2013 and 2018, as long as we have 2 contracts, the majority of upgrades go east and ALL the widebody upgrades go East. If you can process a different scenario, we’re all ears.

Big yawn on that. The east will never hold out that long.