US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 7/14-7/21 NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[HPDriver]

You guys are giving yourselves a bit too much credit.

I've heard your talk before and its gotten you no where. And its getting you no where now.

The company has once again gone on record as saying there will be no parity with a joint contract in place and I'll be that there won't be snapbacks either.

So, USAPA is now left with no tactic but to stall as any negotiations will have to be toward a joint CBA that includes the Nic.

But stalling comes with the pain of LOA 93 and I'd venture to guess that not too many east pilots are willing to see years of appeals keep them working at less pay then there west counterparts.

Sure, you may get bit of movement, but age 65 is still a long way away. And when a joint CBA is inevitably reached, you east pilots will be stuck in your junior captain positions flying reserve for the rest of your careers.

 

[hp_fa]

Look the day our legal team showed up in the Judges courtroom we knew what the final result would be! It has been a hostile environment from the very first meeting with the Judge. He doesn't like us and we don't like him. So on to the 9th we go.

So which is it, that your legal team probably wouldn't find a favorable judge no matter where they looked or that the North Carolina judge failed to serve home cooking for the RICO suit?

The real question is has USAPA's legal team actually found any lawyers or judge who has actually agreed with their wacky position on this case? (Remember that Bradford did a lot of lawyer and opinion shopping before he heard what he wanted to hear from Seham.)

 

[Megasnoop]

Megasnoop,

We will get to see if the Judge tries to take away the east section 6. Lets assume he does......what happens to the west flight attendants they just filed for section 6. This is going to get really interesting!

Keep your eye on the prize!

Taking away S-6 makes for an interesting showdown between Federal Law and Wake legislating from the bench. But I'm not too concerned about how he rules regarding single or separate negotiations. I think overall, we're better off negotiating a single contract. Our attorneys were covering all the bases.

As you said, "the day our legal team showed up in the Judges courtroom we knew what the final result would be! It has been a hostile environment from the very first meeting with the Judge. He doesn't like us and we don't like him. So on to the 9th we go."
We're filling in all the squares and onto the 9th. No matter how obscure the West board lawyers might think they are, if we dont cover all the bases now prior to appeal, we can't introduce new stuff at the 9th.
On the FAs, I think they're negotiating as one unit. Maybe I'll ask over on their thread. No dispute on their DOH seniority list. One thing to observe, our ongoing lack of a single contract keeps West FAs from being combined with East. As long as the two are separate, West FAs are protected from combined list DOH furloughs. I'm sure they realize that. Right now, the company asked for and got 100 East FA LOAs. I don't know the status of the 450 LOAs the company asked for out West but Id bet if they don't get voluntary LOA, they'll furlough.

The company has once again gone on record as saying there will be no parity with a joint contract in place and I'll be that there won't be snapbacks either.

Not that we expected any different. Id bet that before they forced to pay the +18% LOA93/84 payrates and the $35 Million lump sum, they'll take LCC into BK11. Look for late December.

So, USAPA is now left with no tactic but to stall as any negotiations will have to be toward a joint CBA that includes the Nic.

STALL? W're not the ones hung up on costing models. Ours are left over from ALPA days.

But stalling comes with the pain of LOA 93 and I'd venture to guess that not too many east pilots are willing to see years of appeals keep them working at less pay then there west counterparts.

Ah, the pain of a +18% pay raise and $35 Million distribution, assuming Parker doesn't BK us first.

Sure, you may get bit of movement, but age 65 is still a long way away. And when a joint CBA is inevitably reached, you east pilots will be stuck in your junior captain positions flying reserve for the rest of your careers.

In an odd way, age 65 works better for your side than ours as long as we have no single contract. Without the 65 change, we'd be upgrading because of the 250+/year retirements. Per TA, you could come East, but youd be at the bottom of the bidding. Those upgrade seats would go to East pilots as long as we're not in NIC. The TA stipulates once you own a seat, you can't be bounced out. Not even Wake can force the comapny into massive retraining. He let the company off the hook last fall. He won't get another chance to add them back.

Baseball is ninety percent mental and the other half is physical. Yogi Berra

 

[Waketurbulence]

Look the day our legal team showed up in the Judges courtroom we knew what the final result would be! It has been a hostile environment from the very first meeting with the Judge. He doesn't like us and we don't like him. So on to the 9th we go.

And there you will lose...again.

 

[HPDriver]

I think overall, we're better off negotiating a single contract. Our attorneys were covering all the bases.

Wow, listen to you! Is that a bit of reality creeping into your paradigm?

He doesn't like us and we don't like him.

Nonsense. The only thing he doesn't like is the fact USAPA broke the law. Nothing personal. I also don't think he liked the fact your lawyer couldn't answer a simple question regarding contract ratification. Its not USAPA he doesn't like, its the incompetence.

So on to the 9th we go.

It'll be a short trip and a big disappointment.

We're filling in all the squares and onto the 9th.

And so was Wake with todays meeting.

we can't introduce new stuff at the 9th.

That's just it, you DO NOT introduce NEW STUFF at the 9th.

Not that we expected any different. Id bet that before they forced to pay the +18% LOA93/84 payrates and the $35 Million lump sum, they'll take LCC into BK11. Look for late December.

Once again another bit of reality!?!? At least you now understand all you have to look forward to is LOA93.

STALL? W're not the ones hung up on costing models. Ours are left over from ALPA days.

Nonsense. You guys have your own. Let's quit blaming ALPA for all your problems.

In an odd way, age 65 works better for your side than ours as long as we have no single contract. Without the 65 change, we'd be upgrading because of the 250+/year retirements. Per TA, you could come East, but youd be at the bottom of the bidding. Those upgrade seats would go to East pilots as long as we're not in NIC. The TA stipulates once you own a seat, you can't be bounced out. Not even Wake can force the comapny into massive retraining. He let the company off the hook last fall. He won't get another chance to add them back.

You missed what I posted. I understand there is no bumping once you get your seat. Point is, when a vacancy does open up, a west pilot will take that vacancy and settle in at his Nic position - which will more than likely be higher up. So with all the west pilots sliding in above east pilots, you can expect to stay at that particular bid position for a very long time. You'll stay a captain, but a very junior captain for a long time.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

Not that we expected any different. Id bet that before they forced to pay the +18% LOA93/84 payrates and the $35 Million lump sum, they'll take LCC into BK11. Look for late December.

So what you are looking forward to is BK wages worse than what is currently in place?

Is this your argument for continued expenditure of dues money to fight the DFR verdict knowing that the prize will be denied?

If your senario is true what is the point?

 

[goneflyin]

Okay; a question from a lurker for someone who knows the law here. Is there anything to prevent the judge from simply ruling that the Nicolau list is effective immediately, without a joint contract?

That would seemingly be the only way to put an end to this.


BTW, I have no agenda here. I work for another airline, but have been following the case. Thanks for your replies.

 

[A320 Driver]

You missed what I posted. I understand there is no bumping once you get your seat. Point is, when a vacancy does open up, a west pilot will take that vacancy and settle in at his Nic position - which will more than likely be higher up. So with all the west pilots sliding in above east pilots, you can expect to stay at that particular bid position for a very long time. You'll stay a captain, but a very junior captain for a long time.

Ahh yes...WINDFALLS. You've got to love them. This is EXACTLY why this Captain will vote NO forever!


A320 Driver <_<

 

[exB717Flyer]

Is there anything to prevent the judge from simply ruling that the Nicolau list is effective immediately, without a joint contract?

Yes: it would cost the company money. He won't do it.

 

[nycbusdriver]

All you need to know is that no Judge on the Planet can force you to vote for a contract that you don't want to accept. And Parker will NEVER sweeten the pot enough to make that happen.

Those two sentences say it all. The west will keep what they have compensation-wise for several more years, and the east MAY be stuck with LOA 93, or get LOA 84 rates in arbitration.

Okay; a question from a lurker for someone who knows the law here. Is there anything to prevent the judge from simply ruling that the Nicolau list is effective immediately, without a joint contract?

That would seemingly be the only way to put an end to this.

That would be a major change in the contracts which are now in force. Things like that can bring immediate self-help. If the judge forces immediate implementation of the Nic, the RLA may allow a strike (the judge can't change the RLA, nor deprive workers of their rights under that law.) And, before all the west pilots start ranting about "crossing picket lines" (nothing new for some of them,) there would be no picket lines for any future self-help on this property. It will all be about service disruption, a la the AFA trademarked C.H.A.O.S. campaign. (They can trademark the name, but they can't trademark the activity....we owe them a debt of thanks for getting C.H.A.O.S. through the court system as a legitimate means of self-help.)

 

[Hate2fly]

So which is it, that your legal team probably wouldn't find a favorable judge no matter where they looked or that the North Carolina judge failed to serve home cooking for the RICO suit?

The real question is has USAPA's legal team actually found any lawyers or judge who has actually agreed with their wacky position on this case? (Remember that Bradford did a lot of lawyer and opinion shopping before he heard what he wanted to hear from Seham.)

http://bapwild.com/blog/?cat=11

....The plaintiff’s attorney apparently claims that he will seek immediate enforcement of the seniority list handed down by the internal ALPA arbitration panel last year. However, as the agreement entered into between US Airways and ALPA concerning the merger (called the “transition agreementâ€￾) provides that the combined seniority list can only be implemented as part of a combined collective bargaining agreement (which has not been reached), the federal court has no jurisdiction under the Railway Labor Act to grant that relief.

That is because whether the list can be implemented under the terms of the transition agreement constitutes a “minor disputeâ€￾ over the interpretation of that agreement, and the federal court has no jurisdiction over that dispute. And since the plaintiffs did not allege any violation of the DFR in the making of that transition agreement (which was not negotiated by USAPA), but only in USAPA’s negotiation of a new, combined collective bargaining agreement, the federal court cannot rely on the jury’s finding of a DFR violation to exercise jurisdiction over the transition agreement. In addition, US Airways was not a party to the lawsuit, so the federal court likely lacks jurisdiction over the airline to order its implementation of the seniority list.

This litigation will doubtless continue to drag on for some time.

 

[ClueByFour]

Look the day our legal team showed up in the Judges courtroom we knew what the final result would be! It has been a hostile environment from the very first meeting with the Judge. He doesn't like us and we don't like him. So on to the 9th we go.

Uhh, it has nothing to do with your attorney. It's a hostile environment because your case sucks.

Look at the last few hearing transcripts--he's only allowing the latitude he is to please the 9th. I think USAPA is going to be in for somewhat of a shock with the 9th circus if the expectation is overturning Wake on anything of substance....

 

[Megasnoop]

Your S6 wasn't taken away but was merely adjusted to include the west as well along with Nic which, by the way, the company stated is the only list they recognize.

So who cares what happens to S-6? We can’t even agree on the costing models, much less costs. There's no TA anywhere near the horizon. And BTW, Kirby sid he wouldn't get to a TA as long as the Addington verdict is on appeal.

As for the west FA's, they have nothing to worry about. There situation is unrelated and irrelevant to Addington.

Irrelevant to Addington, no doubt. Don't put word in my writing. I never hinted any linkage. As long as we have no pilot single contract, your right, the WEST FAs have nothing to worry about. Thanks for confirming that.

I've heard your talk before and its gotten you no where. And its getting you no where now.

I think maybe “nowhere†is where we want to be right now, at least until the 9th speaks.

The company has once again gone on record as saying there will be no parity with a joint contract in place and I'll be that there won't be snapbacks either.

So? We never expected to get LOA93/84 pay language without a grievance.

So, USAPA is now left with no tactic but to stall as any negotiations will have to be toward a joint CBA that includes the Nic.

Like a broken record: the company is stalling, cant even agree with costing models (and we're using the almighty ALPA models), much less costs. Actually, we’d be better with a NIC TA right now (which would be voted down) than this company rope-a-dope.

But stalling comes with the pain of LOA 93 and I'd venture to guess that not too many east pilots are willing to see years of appeals keep them working at less pay then there west counterparts.

Oh, Brer Bear, please don’t throw me in that briar patch! RE-READ LOA93. The pay concessions end on January 1, 2010. 18% pay increase. We’ll have to grieve it (if we’re not in BK), but its worth it for all of us to wait out both the grievance and the 9th.

Sure, you may get bit of movement, but age 65 is still a long way away. And when a joint CBA is inevitably reached, you east pilots will be stuck in your junior captain positions flying reserve for the rest of your careers.

You really don’t get it, do you. Because you have 1/4 the pilots turning age 60-65 between now and 2012, then 1/6 between 2013 and 2018, as long as we have 2 contracts, the majority of upgrades go east and ALL the widebody upgrades go East. If you can process a different scenario, we’re all ears.

Even Napoleon had his Watergate. Yogi Berra

 

[Hawkhunter]

And in 10 years, the DELETED BY MODERATOR will cry about being robbed and will want it again.

No pleasing these guys. Whatever you do, they will moan that its not fair. AWA should have waited till US went chapter 7, and then just picked from the remnants.

What has any of you done to "please" us? All you want is our jobs. I try not to respond to your flame bait post of little substance. AWA should of waited? You gotta be kidding. Now stomp your feet and come back with a really good one.

 

[Megasnoop]

QUOTE (Megasnoop @ Jul 16 2009, 11:48 PM)
I think overall, we're better off negotiating a single contract. Our attorneys were covering all the bases.

Wow, listen to you! Is that a bit of reality creeping into your paradigm?

No, newbie. If youd been reading my posts over the past year youd read the same words. Thats been my reality all along.

The only thing he doesn't like is the fact USAPA broke the law. Nothing personal. I also don't think he liked the fact your lawyer couldn't answer a simple question regarding contract ratification. Its not USAPA he doesn't like, its the incompetence.

Slow down, big guy. What “law†did we break? Please quote. The rest, huh?

QUOTE
So on to the 9th we go.

It'll be a short trip and a big disappointment.

Short trip? Try at least another 8-12 months before we hear anything from the 9th. Meanwhile, unless the economy improves, I can see the company going BK by December. I’m hoping that wont happen, just looking at reality. Disappointment? Time will tell. Dont count your chickens.

Once again another bit of reality!?!? At least you now understand all you have to look forward to is LOA93.

LOA93. Not so bad, with the expiration of the LOA93 pay rates and the return to LOA84 (18% pay increase). Parity? Who needs parity? LOA84 better than anything Kirby offered.

You missed what I posted. I understand there is no bumping once you get your seat. Point is, when a vacancy does open up, a west pilot will take that vacancy and settle in at his Nic position - which will more than likely be higher up. So with all the west pilots sliding in above east pilots, you can expect to stay at that particular bid position for a very long time. You'll stay a captain, but a very junior captain for a long time.

No West pilot will “settle in at his Nic position†until there is a Nic single contract. You’re a newbie (I assume you aren’t an “oldbie†using a new handle), you haven’t read enough to understand. IF you win at the 9th, your “sliding in above east pilots†may happen. IF you win and IF there’s a single contract. BOL.

So what you are looking forward to is BK wages worse than what is currently in place?

No, careful. What we’re looking at is LOA84 wages, unless the company BKs this place before.

Is this your argument for continued expenditure of dues money to fight the DFR verdict knowing that the prize will be denied? If your senario is true what is the point?

Prize denied, TBD. This will play out, both LOA93/84 and the 9th. Your whole thrust is to try to break our resolve and get us to give in. It aint happening.

Yankee Stadium is so crowded these days, people are staying away in droves. Yogi Berra