US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 7/14-7/21 NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[BoeingBoy]

Jim

I don't believe any of this will happen but for the sake of argument, Isn't this grievance system wide not just east?

Since it concerns the number of large RJ's specified in the transition agreement, I assume that it's a system wide grievance. That's just assumption on my part, though.

Why would west furloughs be recalled to the 190?

Assuming the grievance was won by the union and the settlement called for recalling furloughed pilots (two big assumptions), the transition agreement says that West furloughees get the same rights as East furloughees did - a chance to be recalled to openings on the East. The big question is where the "third list" furloughees would fall in the pecking order for any recalls - as the most junior of East pilots subject to recall before any West furloughees (the out of order furlough arbitrator's ruling on the "third list") or junior to all pilots on the combined list as the transition agreement says.

So it is possible, although not assured, that West furloughees could have the choice to be recalled to the East side before any "third list" pilots were recalled.

Jim

 

[exB717Flyer]

So, you are admitting the judge is an agent for the company? As the company is not a party, I would think taking an unrelated parties concerns into consideration would should how corrupt this entire process is.

The company is not an unrelated party nor is the judge an 'agent' of same. You need to pay closer attention to the court proceedings.

 

[flytchick]

I guess the New Haven Fire Fighters should just taken the judges ruling without an appeal. Remember the reason we have an appeals court is because judges make mistakes, you sir are a coward and afraid of a fight. I'm glad we finally have someone in that represents the pilot majority, you also don't believe in democracy I take it. And I meant in the top 500 of the senoirity list, you don't seem to care about the junior pilots. They will be voting for your future when you are retired, think about it.

AAA#6 isn't a coward he is a realist. There are many more pilots than you think that are sick of this whole thing and want to get on with their lives and start making what their peers make at the other airlines. The junior guys are in just as much financial need as the next guy.

 

[luvthe9]

There are many more pilots than you think that are sick of this whole thing and want to get on with their lives and start making what their peers make at the other airlines.

What makes you think you going to make what your peers do? do you think Doug is just going to give it to you? Yea, lets get ALPA back in, the one that brought us the worst contract in the history of the airline not to mention THEY GAVE my pension away in the middle of the night. Sure we could have a contract right now and "get on with our lives", but it won't be much better than what you have now. You have to fight for it. just my opinion. Please tell me how ALPA will fix all our problems and you explain to the junior guys you don't care about there seniority. I guess those New Haven fire fighters were not realist they chose to fight and they won!!!!! imagine that.

 

[AAA#6]

I guess the New Haven Fire Fighters should just taken the judges ruling without an appeal. Remember the reason we have an appeals court is because judges make mistakes, you sir are a coward and afraid of a fight. I'm glad we finally have someone in that represents the pilot majority, you also don't believe in democracy I take it. And I meant in the top 500 of the senoirity list, you don't seem to care about the junior pilots. They will be voting for your future when you are retired, think about it.

Luvthe9.

I have thought plenty about it. Coward? More like sensible. Your right I look at today for the future and I don't plan on your vote when I am retired. Why? Self interest. As you get older your self interest will change, and you won't be thinking about me. I can assure you that. Looks good on paper and in theory, but we all know how it really works.

Where is the wisdom of a union (remember the EAST and WEST ALPA MECs agreed to the E190 rates) that in one breath tells us to support E190 FO's because they don' t make enough, yet at the same time advise us to hold out for a contract (without Nic) that would improve these FO's lifestyle. If there are E190 FO's out there that are complaining about wages and not making it and in the same breath saying they will not support a contract with the Nic, then they are just crazy. That makes no sense what so ever if they are putting the Nic in front of putting food on the table. The more we hold out the more we destroy our own, these FO's are losing and hurting and it is due to our actions while Mr. Seham is gaining everything ($1.8M to be exact). He is the true winner in all of this. He has exploited this situation to the point that he is telling our union leader what they want to hear, and it just keeps on feeding into the frenzy.

Of course we have the right to appeal. And yes we can go down fighting. Just remember when we lose the appeal (and we will due to the overwhelming evidence and lack of case law to support our case), we will be paying assesments for damages and lawyer fees. Your union fees and assesments already cost more than ALPA did. Just add some more assesments that only the East ( because the West won't be liable for damages and legal fees) will pay, and your talking a lot of money. Money that is coming off that E190 FO's table. ??? Yeah holding out is the right thing to do ???

I for one think it is stupid to appeal. If it goes back to trial, the West lawyers will call Bradford to explain himself. Why do think he didn't go in the first place?

So before you tell me to think about it...you really should think as well. Sooner or later you got to cut your losses and move on. There is no economic sense to continue on no matter what you seniority number is.

Coward? No. Smart and sensible? Yes. Sometimes it just doesn't go your way.

 

[luvthe9]

o before you tell me to think about it...you really should think as well. Sooner or later you got to cut your losses and move on. There is no economic sense to continue on no matter what you seniority number is.

Coward? No. Smart and sensible? Yes. Sometimes it just doesn't go your way.

Tell me how ALPA will do better? I really want to know. What will they do for our 190 guys?

 

[luvn737s]

ALPA would face the same uphill battle as USAPA, but it wouldn't be driven by a devisive myopic agenda that undermines the unity necessary to improve anything. Recall the entire east BPR and replace them with progressive unity-minded pilots and you would probably set the stage for an improved contract quicker than anything else. Get the west involved by dropping all the west-east crap and use their expertise in dealing with this management group.

The comparison between USAPA and the New Haven Fire Fighters is a little ridiculous. Wake is not trying to make up law as he goes, he is trying to see that the rights of the west pilots under Nicolau are balanced against USAPA's right to run it's union. However, USAPA needed to be reminded of it RESPONSIBILITY to represent the west pilots (members and non-members alike) and was not about to let them abdicate that responsibility and advance their own opposing agenda.

Vote in new leaders who fully understand this and embrace it and you would see an entirely new USAPA.

 

[Phoenix]

... Sometimes it just doesn't go your way.

#6..? Do tell. We are all ears. We want to change our vote to be like yours (I mean if you are still in favor of voting). Say on, brother.

 

[AAA#6]

Tell me how ALPA will do better? I really want to know. What will they do for our 190 guys?

Absolutely nothing right now. That's the cold hard facts of the present economy. I don't profess to love ALPA, but how can USAPA be the right course. I don't like how the events turned out, but after looking at the expenses they are accumulating versus the lack of progress...I find the return on investment to very unsatisfactory.

I urge everyone to look at the DOL LM2. Forget about the 1.8 they owe Seham. Look at the Wyndham, Hyatt, Hilton hotel bills. It's easily over 100K. 100K that could have gone to the E190 FO's. Why is it they have to live high on the hog. I know ALPA does the same, but our guys said this union would be different, and it's not. I am increasingly starting to believe that this union is serving only a few persons interests (namely the BPR and officers) and there is most likely some fleecing going on at our expense.

As I said we can ride the ship all the way down to save face that we did not quit or give up. But it will come at a tremendous cost. And like I said the E190 FO's are the ones getting hurt the most. We are all losing money in this and our pilot group is the most exposed to losing money when damages come.

USAPA plain and simple doesn't work. I don't believe these guys know what they are doing. What they seem strong on is rhetoric and nothing else.

 

[AAA#6]

#6..? Do tell. We are all ears. We want to change our vote to be like yours (I mean if you are still in favor of voting). Say on, brother.

I am one that would like to see some unity here so that we can get a good contract. There will never be unity here in the pure sense, but I have flown with enough guys to know that if a good contract were to come along, it would most likely pass. There are more than 500 guys out here that are done with the Nic and are ready to move on.

After a long battle, eventually self interest will peek its head out. It's human nature.

 

[Phoenix]

What does LM-2 actually stand for? I know what it means in a functional way, but what is the actual term? Also, when is the next one due to be released?

LM2 is the annual report for unions so to speak and can be obtained from the Dept of Labor.


File number 543-770. It is public domain.

The USAPA team is incurring over $950K on their own. People really should look at the other stuff.

I am sure USAPA doesn't want us to see it.

ALPA has plenty of proxies to throw stones. But Prater lives in a champagne glass house, or maybe it was tiffany... oh whatever.

Never underestimate Prater though, didn't he bring the independent CAL union back to the mother ship... to return to walking the streets for papa?

 

[luvthe9]

ALPA would face the same uphill battle as USAPA, but it wouldn't be driven by a devisive myopic agenda that undermines the unity necessary to improve anything. Recall the entire east BPR and replace them with progressive unity-minded pilots and you would probably set the stage for an improved contract quicker than anything else. Get the west involved by dropping all the west-east crap and use their expertise in dealing with this management group.

.

Vote in new leaders who fully understand this and embrace it and you would see an entirely new USAPA.

Nic aside for now, how will ALPA get my pay where it was, my pension back and my vacation back to 44 days, and the compairison is right on the judge in that case made a huge mistake that the appeals court corrected, I know you don't want to believe it but It could happen in this case also, will have to wait to find out. Those ALPA national bast**ds did not have the decency to take a pay cut for themselfs ijn show of support to us or lower our dues when 4 or 5 ALPA carriers were in bankruptcy. They kept there 500,000+ salary and lived the high life while I yook a 47% paycut and had my pension give away. ALPA SUX and our boys in the east had there eye on a national position especially Stephan.

 

[AAA#6]

Here is the LM2 for USAPA.

Look at it for yourself and make up your own mind.

Page 1-12 here....pages 13-24 on next post

 

[Phoenix]

ALPA would face the same uphill battle as USAPA, but it wouldn't be driven by a devisive myopic agenda that undermines the unity necessary to improve anything. Recall the entire east BPR and replace them with progressive unity-minded pilots and you would probably set the stage for an improved contract quicker than anything else. Get the west involved by dropping all the west-east crap and use their expertise in dealing with this management group.

The comparison between USAPA and the New Haven Fire Fighters is a little ridiculous. Wake is not trying to make up law as he goes, he is trying to see that the rights of the west pilots under Nicolau are balanced against USAPA's right to run it's union. However, USAPA needed to be reminded of it RESPONSIBILITY to represent the west pilots (members and non-members alike) and was not about to let them abdicate that responsibility and advance their own opposing agenda.

Vote in new leaders who fully understand this and embrace it and you would see an entirely new USAPA.

Try a recall. If you stop to think you will realize the current reps actually allow votes, while the folks you suggest should be returned to power denied such a recall vote, among many other votes such as the pension.

But by all means, lobby for a vote to give away your vote. Its a democracy for as long as the majority want it to be.

 

[luvthe9]

Absolutely nothing right now. That's the cold hard facts of the present economy. I don't profess to love ALPA, but how can USAPA be the right course. I don't like how the events turned out, but after looking at the expenses they are accumulating versus the lack of progress...I find the return on investment to very unsatisfactory.

I urge everyone to look at the DOL LM2. Forget about the 1.8 they owe Seham. Look at the Wyndham, Hyatt, Hilton hotel bills. It's easily over 100K. 100K that could have gone to the E190 FO's. Why is it they have to live high on the hog. I know ALPA does the same, but our guys said this union would be different, and it's not. I am increasingly starting to believe that this union is serving only a few persons interests (namely the BPR and officers) and there is most likely some fleecing going on at our expense.

You have to be kidding those bills are a drop in the bucket compared to what our old ALPO regime used to spend, remember La Jolla, how about the picture of Pollock horse back riding in PHX on my dime along with his family. Don"t even go there. And you might not like the course USAPA is on the fact is we got screwed big time by ALPA. And yes the economy sucks at present and will for a while longer.