US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 7/14-7/21 NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[Barrister]

Back East we know the antimosity between JS and Cleary. I think he'd rather have us lose the appeal if it meant sticking it Mike. We all saw his performance at the CLT/Parker meeting. Now he's got a "westcoastflyer" admirer. He's got a captive cockpit audience, sitting near the top of the list in CLT, Nic wont hurt him. West parity would probably make his day as long as it had the Nic. FOs roll their eyes and "yes-sir" him rather than debate. His "definite shift" is his mind fantasy. There's nothing any where near being on the table. The company wont even come to the table, except 2-3 times a month. Then they want to argue costing models. Current situation costs them about $25M/yr (ALPA's modeling). The old Kirby, which isn''t even the table any more would cost $130M/yr. (company estimate)
The above is reposted!!

I remeber well that one of the East Captains was giving Cleary hell when Parker was in CLT. It was this Captains view that Cleary was just trying to pick a fight with Parker over the "fuel school" and the 8 Captains who were targeted. It was this Captains view that this whole thing was a none issue and that, and I quote, "my money is on Mr. Parker" NOW it turns out that the Company had NO data, ZERO, that these 8 guys had done anything wrong. I was even there when Parker looked at the VP of ops and Ordered him to give the data to USAPA. Guess what girls....there wasn't any.

I always wondered if this guy apologized to Cleary and asked for his forgiveness for cutting him to his knees in front of PARKER, SINCE HE WAS DEAD WRONG....I guess not.

Voting NO forever if itmean NIC,

 

[cleardirect]

If you West guys ever wind up on the street some day (which may be coming) I am positive you can all get a fine job writing for the National Enquirer or the Star, you guys have some of the best spin I've seen, keep trying though somebody will believe it.

What spin would that be?

That final and binding is most final and most binding? (judge Wake doc 593)
That changing unions will not get you out of final and binding arbitration?
That usapa did not treat the west pilots fairly?
That usapa would be a weak and ineffective association?
That Seham is a poor lawyer with questionable legal theories?
That seniority is not negotiable like a crew meal?

What part of this don't you believe?

 

[cleardirect]

Back East we know the antimosity between JS and Cleary. I think he'd rather have us lose the appeal if it meant sticking it Mike. We all saw his performance at the CLT/Parker meeting. Now he's got a "westcoastflyer" admirer. He's got a captive cockpit audience, sitting near the top of the list in CLT, Nic wont hurt him. West parity would probably make his day as long as it had the Nic. FOs roll their eyes and "yes-sir" him rather than debate. His "definite shift" is his mind fantasy. There's nothing any where near being on the table. The company wont even come to the table, except 2-3 times a month. Then they want to argue costing models. Current situation costs them about $25M/yr (ALPA's modeling). The old Kirby, which isn''t even the table any more would cost $130M/yr. (company estimate)
The above is reposted!!

I remeber well that one of the East Captains was giving Cleary hell when Parker was in CLT. It was this Captains view that Cleary was just trying to pick a fight with Parker over the "fuel school" and the 8 Captains who were targeted. It was this Captains view that this whole thing was a none issue and that, and I quote, "my money is on Mr. Parker" NOW it turns out that the Company had NO data, ZERO, that these 8 guys had done anything wrong. I was even there when Parker looked at the VP of ops and Ordered him to give the data to USAPA. Guess what girls....there wasn't any.

I always wondered if this guy apologized to Cleary and asked for his forgiveness for cutting him to his knees in front of PARKER, SINCE HE WAS DEAD WRONG....I guess not.

Voting NO forever if itmean NIC,

That is your right.

Enjoy LOA 93 for the rest of your career then. No snap back, no raises, no better schedules, no additional vacation days.

 

[HPDriver]

NOW it turns out that the Company had NO data, ZERO, that these 8 guys had done anything wrong. I was even there when Parker looked at the VP of ops and Ordered him to give the data to USAPA. Guess what girls....there wasn't any.

That is incorrect.

Data indicated that each Captain that was brought in had a bump in fuel history that was significant enough to bring them on.

They're lucky to still have jobs but at least they know they're being watched.

 

[luvn737s]

It was this Captains view that this whole thing was a none issue and that, and I quote, "my money is on Mr. Parker"

I'd have to respectfully disagree with this captain.

His CONFIDENCE may be on Parker, but his MONEY is on Cleary. And what a poor investment it's been.

My prediction is that Cleary will face more, not less, of this type of reaction in the future.

 

[Barrister]

That is incorrect.

Data indicated that each Captain that was brought in had a bump in fuel history that was significant enough to bring them on.

They're lucky to still have jobs but at least they know they're being watched.

Funny this data you purport to know about was never mentioned, never disclosed and has since been disavowed. And you dudes missed the point again....yes we get it. If the appeal is lost the NIC is IT no doubt about that. But this will MAD (mutually assured destruction) we will get ours in the form of attrition....if we are still around but it ain't gonna be a big new contract and one big happy family. This company could order 100 A-330s and a TA will never pass. At least not in the next 3-5 years. You just don't have a clue what our F/Os (and many Captains) have given up to keep this place in business and what they lost in the NIC. Don't hold your breath.

Voting NO forever if it means NIC

 

[jetjok1]

For those of you that think it'll take years to negotiate a new contract can think again.

It'll be done in a matter of months.

Get used to that fact.

What are you smoking! Your illustrious leaders ( yours, never claimed them to be mine) won't even negotiate. It's going to cost them their "bonus money". Doesn't matter what happens in the courts. The money managers will drag on, and on, and on. Let see Judge Wake get the company to the table. Then, you might have something. Until then........ months? get used to that fact.

 

[Freighterguynow]

That is incorrect.

Data indicated that each Captain that was brought in had a bump in fuel history that was significant enough to bring them on.

They're lucky to still have jobs but at least they know they're being watched.

I have flown with 2 of the 8 and one of the Check Airmen presiding over the fuel fiasco.


At no time was any data provided of any kind.

 

[Barrister]

I'd have to respectfully disagree with this captain.

His CONFIDENCE may be on Parker, but his MONEY is on Cleary. And what a poor investment it's been.

My prediction is that Cleary will face more, not less, of this type of reaction in the future.

Sorry, a bit confusing, .... apparently the guy who says the resolve is weakening , he has flown with F/Os who just want to move on etc...is the same gut that was giving Cleary a hard time at the meeting. My point was yea, there's a viewpoint you can trust. It ain't happening. Getting a TA could happen tomorrow....but it ain't passing. Another thing you forget......U had to park 35 airplanes just to get this deal done. What have you lost on the West.....nothing that was not after the fact and related to economics.


VNIIMN (Voting NO if it means NIC)

 

[A320 Driver]

VNIIMN (Voting NO if it means NIC)
[/quote]


I guess the Kirby isn't looking so bad if your a West guy and get the NIC with it. This company will NEVER put any serious money on the table. THEY CAN'T. Too many money people they are beholding to. With the pace of negotiations, the sour economy, LCCs shrinking pocketbook, depressed yields, more competition hoping our demise...I mean, COME ON. What do you suppose would so motivate management that they would agree to a contract anyway.

Based on past history, I'm betting the company comes in with a contract proposal somewhere north of LOA 93 and south of the current West contract. They will walk into the room (the few days you can get them there) with their pants pockets hanging out and a tear in their eye. "Take one for the team boys".

Been there, done that. Only real money we made in the last two decades started out as a concession to Wolfe (parity +1%). He didn't count on United getting a big raise. Ours lasted just long enough for management to figure out how to get it back...with interest.

Just my opinion
A320 Driver B)

VNIIMN (cool)

 

[Piedmont1984]

If the Nic is definitely going to be the list, then VNIIMTN is cutting off your nose... Might as well get off LOA 93, and sentiment is shifting in that direction. Time for the senior F/O's to consider the junior F/O's on the 190.

HOWEVER - no sense in voting on anything until:

1 We know what happens at the 9th Federal Court.
2 We know what happens with LOA 93 pay rates come January.
3 We know how the MDA lawsuit turns out.
4 We know what management is up to in the short to intermediate term - merger, fragmentation, bankruptcy, etc.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[cleardirect]

If the Nic is definitely going to be the list, then VNIIMTN is cutting off your nose... Might as well get off LOA 93, and sentiment is shifting in that direction. Time for the senior F/O's to consider the junior F/O's on the 190.

HOWEVER - no sense in voting on anything until:

1 We know what happens at the 9th Federal Court.
2 We know what happens with LOA 93 pay rates come January.
3 We know how the MDA lawsuit turns out.
4 We know what management is up to in the short to intermediate term - merger, fragmentation, bankruptcy, etc.

Just my humble opinion.

1. 18-24 months or a quick denial.
2. At least 12 more months to arbitration. Unless you guys will accept Hogg's answer at the VP level.
3. Irrelevant to our situation. 12-24 months anyway.
4. Unknown time frame.

Fact not opinion.

 

[AAA#6]

I just don't understand this (EAST) pilot group at all.

You have a union that is spending money like crazy. Look at the LM-2 for USAPA. They have spent $1.8M on Seham, mostly on something he could never deliver, and frankly I am not impressed with this guy. He has played USAPA for his own benefit, and will continue to rake it in, until this pilot group decides they have had enough.
USAPA is racking up hotel bills for board meetings that are in the mid tens of thousands of dollars. I expect the union to have expenses, but why do they need to go to Hyatt, Hilton's and such. Can't the work get done at a Holiday Inn Express? Now they want 85 hours plus extra for a stipend? Come on, I thought this was a pilot's union. They are acting just like ALPA. While we are eating Sabarros in the terminal, I am sure they are expensing steak dinners. I have no faith in Cleary and company anymore and I will not support USAPA.

Educate yourself and look at the LM-2 they filed and ask yourself if these guys are really performing a useful service. I don't think so. We have E190 FO's that qualify for food stamps, a union that wants us to donate to a fund to help them, yet we have pilots that want to shoot down a contract for the sake of the Nic. A little contradictory. Give me a break already. Face it. It's time to move on and act as one pilot group and hopefully be in position when the economy turns the corner. Otherwise we have no reason to moan about LOA93 and why we continue to live off it.

The Nic is in place, it will not get overturned because there are so many smoking guns here its not even funny. It will not even get changed in BK (gosh forbid we go there). USAPA will have no leverage what-so-ever in BK proceedings, and the BK judge will not touch the injunction because it has no play in reorganization with creditors, and its an injunction involving RLA rights.

Also, the company is now on record that the Nic is Nic, and they want a single CBA. THEY ARE ON RECORD. It's pointless to keep the crosshairs on the AWA pilots after the company has made such a statement.

So what do I see....another ALPA drive and this time the WEST will probably succeed in getting the 500+
East votes (including me) that they need.

I'm done.

Captain A320
CLT

 

[luvthe9]

I just don't understand this (EAST) pilot group at all.

So what do I see....another ALPA drive and this time the WEST will probably succeed in getting the 500+
East votes (including me) that they need.

I'm done.

Captain A320
CLT

By the way a really misss my ALPA magazine, I and want a job at ALPA national. And yes I'm afraid to fight and I'm in the top 500 so I just want a contract at any cost. How typical.

 

[hp_fa]

You have a union that is spending money like crazy. Look at the LM-2 for USAPA. They have spent $1.8M on Seham, mostly on something he could never deliver, and frankly I am not impressed with this guy. He has played USAPA for his own benefit, and will continue to rake it in, until this pilot group decides they have had enough.

What does LM-2 actually stand for? I know what it means in a functional way, but what is the actual term? Also, when is the next one due to be released?

Also, the company is now on record that the Nic is Nic, and they want a single CBA. THEY ARE ON RECORD. It's pointless to keep the crosshairs on the AWA pilots after the company has made such a statement.

That is true that they stated it, the million dollar question is do they really mean it? I suspect they do but the question is what price are they willing to pay for it?

The problem, as I see it, is that the radical fringe are in charge of the BPR, in large part because the West folks were nearly all non-members of USAPA and that a significant number of East pilots are Ellis objectors. Since the BPR appoints the negotiating committee and the communications committee they can control the non-negotiations and the information that is provided to the membership.

The Company can actually break this log jam by publicly negotiating, or making otherwise making public, their financial offer(s). This can prevent the BPR from unduly controlling the information provided to members and also create communications to the West folks and the East folks currently not MIGS. Also, those folks need to become MIGS so they can vote if and when any recall may occur. They can become Ellis objectors again later if they so choose, but if they fail to take back control of the union then they have no legitimate gripe because they failed to act.