US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 7/14-7/21 NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[john john]

Anyway the west is at or below min hours and aircraft. Looks like the next round of reductions come from the place that has some to spare and could use some cost reductions.

That will be up to a judge in Arizonan not the party’s involved management and the union have no say

 

[john john]

Management has U right where they want you.

The judge in Arizonan is running the show

 

[Freighterguynow]

The question does arise, at leat to me, that even if management at USAPA changed what makes anyone think that ALPA or any other union wants to be affiliated with the US Airways pilots? Seriously, after all the turmoil, the mess regarding the DFR and the ill will permeating the place,

Well, with the Atlas/Polar Teamsters financial irregularities, representational fight between the membership vs the National Union, identical ALPA merger policy war and now representational issues about the companies BOD selection.
Over at the Frontier, Midwest and Republic you have both CH11 and a seniority meltdown looming that makes ours pale by comparison.

Our little dispute is nothing compared to those 2 so, yes - it'll be no problem getting another union interested in US Airways. Though I will add that no one I've met or flown with is caving in. Just a couple posters ready to throw the junior guy under the bus to get a raise for themselves.

 

[cleardirect]

All of you MDA guys. Looks like it is time to start looking for another union. USAPA has abandoned you also just like ALPA. Maybe you can add usapa to your DFR law suit. Even usapa understands that the MDA suit will have ZERO, NONE, NADA impact on the Nicolau seniority list. So keep wasting your money if you wish. More to come on this.

The PHL reps are getting the situation. Read this one carefully. It says that Randy and the national officers are STILL confident they will prevail. It does not says “weâ€￾ the BPR or “weâ€￾ the PHL reps are still confident. Are there doubts beginning to show within the leadership structure? The PHL reps also understand that an expedited appeal is not guaranteed and that waiting for the ninth circuit is going to be a long wait.

No Brengle? But he was going to be the white knight. Riding in to save usapa from the evil judge. After the first week Brengle or Seham decided that playing solitaire was more productive for Brengle then actually arguing the case. But at least he still collected a check. But now I guess Seham wants all of that appeal money for himself. Since he did such a fine job at trial you should let him continue.

PHL Update July 18
Randy also spoke on the Addington trial, and the upcoming damages trial, which now has been postponed until at least January 2010. Randy, and the rest of the Officers, are still confident that USAPA will prevail in the appeal to the 9th Circuit. Depending on if an expedited appeal is granted, we could possibly be in the 9th Circuit by the end of the year. This is by no means assured, and the timeline could end up being quite a bit longer. A question was raised whether the MDA lawsuit will have any impact on the appeal. The short answer is no, as the opinions would be conflicting. Another question dealt with the inclusion of Attorney Jim Brengle in the appeal. As of now Jim is not part of the process, but if needed, can be called upon.

 

[Phoenix]

Some people confuse courage with being stupid.

And some prefer to accuse democracy of such? What's your point! ALPA already reserved that one.

 

[ClueByFour]

How can a judge in Arizonan imposed a contract under the RLA on the party’s if they haven’t agree on it. If so let the surviving contract of the repressive exist. This judge is taking bargaining away for the RLA which has existent since 1926 RLA provides for orderly settlement of all disputes concerning rates of pay, rules, or working conditions Employees have the right
It’s the law

The judge can remedy a violation of duty of fair representation. If that requires removing RLA levers, he's permitted (by law) to do it.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

And like I said the E190 FO's are the ones getting hurt the most.

If you read the TA, specifically the 190 Section, you will see that the 190 rates are set and not negotiable for quite some time. My guess is that the company will refuse to open this up in any negotiation without some pressure. As far as Wakes injunction, why not just use it as a bargaining chip with company. After 3 or 4 T.A. are rejected, maybe they will finally offer something worthwhile like industry average pay and vacation.

 

[nic4us]

Jim,
There is no third list. That was determined by an arbitration months ago. There are only two lists, east and west, until the mythical 'joint contract'.
New hires that were assigned to the east come back to east positions, and west furloughs go to the west.

I suppose this is somewhat true, however, there would be no new hires on the east until the West furloughs were recalled (either to the east or west). Further we have 6 pilots that are ( to quote Yogi Berra-thanks for the laughs Snoop) "amphibious" switch hitters who apparently have numbers on both list.

So the notion that the east attrition will load the east with new hires who do not want West pilots coming over and eventually ending up senior to them, therefore voting to retain seperate ops is somewhat unlikely.

It is actually more likely that if PHX and LAS are continually drawn down, that West pilots will begin to fill more and more of the ranks in PHL etc. According to the TA they would come in at the bottom of the east list, but they would still get to vote! So say after 2 years of east attrition at 300 per anum, we have recalled the 142 West furloughs and moved an additional 450 west to east. LAS is closed, PHX has 1000 and PHL-CLT has 600 former West at the bottom, willing to vote yes on anything to get their original seniority back.

 

[hp_fa]

Not only did ALPA crush recalls the mother ship didnt like, but they "recalled" Reps in PHL they didn't like. Can't wait for their organization drive, Free food, drinks.

Even allowing for literary license your statement is untrue. LEC 41 was placed in receivership. Why? Not because they disagreed with "the mothership", but rather because at least some of the officers openly supported USAPA. ALPA did what it needed to do to protect itself legally.

The really "good" part of this is that the actions of those officers in supporting USAPA became part of Judge Wake's reason for entering his injunction because of the dual-unionism that he referred too not very long ago.

 

[hp_fa]

Try again. The company is a party to this. Please read the documents before you post.

Actually, I think the Company was formally dismissed from the action on July 17th when Judge Wake issued his formal Order.

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED, ADJUDGED, AND DECREED that Plaintiffs’ claims against Defendant US Airways, Inc., in No. CV 08-1633 PHX-NVW are dismissed for lack of subject matter jurisdiction.

That said I fully agree with the premise of your response to Captain Jack. I thought his post was fundamentally incorrect in referring to Judge Wake as an agent for the company. He isn't. However it becomes fairly useless to deal with a union matter that relates around only one company's pilots and potential actions of the court could damage that business. Also, it is fundamentally unfair to potentially impair the rights and obligations of a business when that business has committed no legal wrongdoing.

 

[hp_fa]

Our little dispute is nothing compared to those 2 so, yes - it'll be no problem getting another union interested in US Airways. Though I will add that no one I've met or flown with is caving in. Just a couple posters ready to throw the junior guy under the bus to get a raise for themselves.

Thank you for the response. I don't know anything about the Atlas/Polar case and very little about the Frontier case.

I have previously said that from my outside perspective that it seems to make more sense to be affiliated with a large union rather than a small union or none at all. I am looking at this from an economy-of-scale perspective and just think that more benefit would generally accrue from being part of a larger association. I also fully understand and appreciate that others may disagree with my purely subjective view of the issue.

As for the "caving" issue I believe that USAPA supporters took advantage of the opportunity to vote for candidates that represented a certain element of the pilots that fly for US Airways, a segment that didn't represent many West pilots and even some East pilots. So I wonder that as more of those pilots become MIGS whether the voting majority of the membership of USAPA might become more moderate and inclusive.

 

[luvn737s]

If you read the TA, specifically the 190 Section, you will see that the 190 rates are set and not negotiable for quite some time. My guess is that the company will refuse to open this up in any negotiation without some pressure. As far as Wakes injunction, why not just use it as a bargaining chip with company. After 3 or 4 T.A. are rejected, maybe they will finally offer something worthwhile like industry average pay and vacation.

Bargaining chip? BK will be the bargaining chip and I would bet it will be played before winter. The pilots will again face the choice of voting in a new concessionary contract or allowing a BK judge to do it for them.

Actions (like pulling out of joint negotiations like children) have consequences- dire ones.

 

[HPDriver]

Not only did ALPA crush recalls the mother ship didnt like, but they "recalled" Reps in PHL they didn't like.

Oh the hypocrisy.

I guess USAPA censoring the west reps is OK, right?

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

That is your right.

Enjoy LOA 93 for the rest of your career then. No snap back, no raises, no better schedules, no additional vacation days.

no nic

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

Luvthe9.

Where is the wisdom of a union (remember the EAST and WEST ALPA MECs agreed to the E190 rates) that in one breath tells us to support E190 FO's because they don' t make enough, yet at the same time advise us to hold out for a contract (without Nic) that would improve these FO's lifestyle. If there are E190 FO's out there that are complaining about wages and not making it and in the same breath saying they will not support a contract with the Nic, then they are just crazy.

crazy huh, i am a 190 fo and if nic is in i am on the street. thx for your concern but if you are truly looking out for me good buddy, then no to any contract for as long as we can hold it off.