AWA Alpa thread 11/2-11-8

[end_of_alpa]

OK: For starters no one "brought a job" to anything. Said jobs existed without any regard to the persons holding them, and were/are entirely dependant on staffing levels at any given moment. You make it sound as if any individual pilot could create, maintain, or otherwise "bring" any job anywhere. That's purely absurd. Ever go on vacation?, become ill? have any reason that prevented you from flying on any given day? Did "your job" that you "brought" evaporate?...Was it's existence even the least bit dependant upon you?.....Didn't think so. Spare me visions of AWA guys heroically dragging "jobs" up desert cliffs, by sheer force of magiificent will and determination. What any/all "brought" were themselves, and their professional skills and experience....period.

"Explain to us why you think the years it took you to hold a job means more than the job itself." Trade work tenure's generally an accepted principle pretty much anywhere outside of Alpo it seems. Regardless; kindly explain to me why years of service should count for nothing at all? There's no such thing as "years it took you to hold a job". The "job" started on day one, and isn't any issue of "holding"...it's an issue of experience and work performed in my mind. That said service and experience should be accorded at least some value's long been a basic tenant of any degree of civilization.

On what reasonable, and hopefully consistent basis, do you believe things should be organized?

First come, first serve is THE GUIDING PRINCIPLE at AWA. One of the reasons they wanted the non-rev policy the way they did. This mentality is totally ANTITHETICAL to unionism. It's a "me first" attitude and is truly market oriented. THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE REALLY SAYING!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Pot meet Kettle.

And US pilots scabbed in 1992, cleaned planes during the 30 day cooling off period and during the Mechanic and Related Strike in October of 1992.

ALPA and US cut a secret deal to pay all pilots if ALPA did not honor the picket line.

So the pilots crossed the picket lines and scabbed. At least the company had to get a court order to order the AFA to come to work.

US grounded all the MD-80s, DC-9s, 737-200s, F100s and F28s, yet all pilots got paid.

If you live in a glass house don't throw stones.

Not the "true" definition of scab. Pilots are not in the same "craft or class" as those in your craft or class. You need to refresh your labor education. Besides, janitorial services are just one example of "unskilled" labor. This is not a reflection of work ethic, it is a matter of exclusivity and replacability. Training someone to clean your house or clean an aircraft carries little to no additional training on the part of the company, as you are aware. If it was then what "SOP's" would you suggest that would make it exclusive that others couldn't perform it???

Aircraft mechanic, however, is one example that IS a skilled trade, just like pilots!! (e.g. Federal certification)

I presume you are NOT an aircraft mechanic by your resentment towards others. Tit for tat...the craft or class you are taking about NEVER did the same for the pilots as far as I can recall.

 

[700UW]

Lets see, you crossed a picket line, you cleaned planes, work which is covered under the IAM Mechanic and Related CBA.

You performed struck work, it was witnessed, you are a scab.

Doesnt matter if it is skilled or unskilled, you performed struck work, bottom line.

Funny, never seen a strike by ALPA at US in my lifetime, you group never voted for a concession you did not like.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Lets see, you crossed a picket line, you cleaned planes, work which is covered under the IAM Mechanic and Related CBA.

You performed struck work, it was witnessed, you are a scab.

Doesnt matter if it is skilled or unskilled, you performed struck work, bottom line.

Funny, never seen a strike by ALPA at US in my lifetime, you group never voted for a concession you did not like.

You are too smart for me!!!!! By the way, why won't you answer the question? Are you a mechanic or not????

(You're not breaking my heart, judging from the likes of you.)

 

[exB717Flyer]

ALPA merger policy? What policy?

Sorry you don't understand it. The Policy is both sides negotiate and if not successful it goes to binding arbitration.

So far its been guidelines, now process(es), it's only policy when it suits nationals whims and desires.

Really, I mean really, all you're really upset about is that the ALPA EC didn't agree that just because you don't like the Nicolau Award it should be overturned. There's no whims or desires about it. You may claim that ALPA Policy wasn't followed yet you have zero proof. Even the USAPA attorney Seeham agreed. So it's specious for you to complain about ALPA Merger Policy at this point, especially considering no easties were complaining about before Nicolau ruled.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Sorry you don't understand it. The Policy is both sides negotiate and if not successful it goes to binding arbitration.

Thats the problem, I do understand it. If a UNION merger policy requires arbitration, then it is not policy.

Really, I mean really, all you're really upset about is that the ALPA EC didn't agree that just because you don't like the Nicolau Award it should be overturned. There's no whims or desires about it. You may claim that ALPA Policy wasn't followed yet you have zero proof. Even the USAPA attorney Seeham agreed. So it's specious for you to complain about ALPA Merger Policy at this point, especially considering no easties were complaining about before Nicolau ruled.

Complaining? Just because you didn't hear about it doesn't mean we didn't express ourselves to the powers that be. The core USAPA supporters knew that ALPA didn't have a workable policy. Too bad the powers chose to rely on what they thought was policy under ALPA. And then we come to this mess. So spare me your reasons to support ALPA over this. We will always disagree over ALPA, no matter the outcome over its failed merger policy and Constitution and ByLaws.

 

[Phoenix]

If a UNION merger policy requires arbitration, then it is not policy.

Thank you!

We thought we heard "Merger Policy" but what ALPO said was "MERGER PROSPECTUS".

Pilots should consider the investment objectives, risks, sales charges and expense of the Association carefully before investing. The Merger Prospectus contains more complete information about this and other matters. The Merger Prospectus should be read carefully before investing.

 

[EastUS]

Thats the problem, I do understand it. If a UNION merger policy requires arbitration, then it is not policy.

Complaining? Just because you didn't hear about it doesn't mean we didn't express ourselves to the powers that be. The core USAPA supporters knew that ALPA didn't have a workable policy. Too bad the powers chose to rely on what they thought was policy under ALPA. And then we come to this mess. So spare me your reasons to support ALPA over this. We will always disagree over ALPA, no matter the outcome over its failed merger policy and Constitution and ByLaws.

Bottom line for me = If Alpo actually "worked" at any level, we'd not have an industry largely bereft of pensions, there'd be some actual "National" unity, and we certainly wouldn't be in this current west vs east debacle. If a car refuses to run...much less take you anywhere even close to your intended destination...It's time to junk it.

 

[nostradamus]

Lets see, you crossed a picket line, you cleaned planes, work which is covered under the IAM Mechanic and Related CBA.

You performed struck work, it was witnessed, you are a scab.

Doesnt matter if it is skilled or unskilled, you performed struck work, bottom line.

Funny, never seen a strike by ALPA at US in my lifetime, you group never voted for a concession you did not like.

The strike lasted for four days, you blinked in that short time. The mechanics for US Air, who are highly skilled and the best in the industry, bar none, tried their best to let other unskilled laborers ride their coattails.

 

[700UW]

The strike lasted for five days, started on a sunday night/monday morning at midnight, ended on Friday, were still out of work Saturday and we returned to work on Sunday and Monday.

And once again, the unskilled were going to get a better deal and WE voted it down during the 30 day cooling off period to get the mechanics a better deal with no layoffs.

Since you are not an IAM member nor involved with negotiations I would suggest you stick to things you actually know about.

We did not blink, we negotiated, voted down a T/A, stayed at work during negotiations after the 30 day cooling off period, then went on strike when it was apparent a deal could not be reached.

We ended up taking less of a paycut than the company wanted, secured a no layoff clause, a 200% return on pay concessions, no outsourcing of work and stock.

During the 30 day cooling off period I witnessed and filed numerous grievances seeing pilots cleaning planes which is IAM CBA covered work. When we went out on strike, we had family and friends who were non-union still working and informed us of Pilots performing a/c cleaning, so that makes them a scab.

Once again, Don't let the facts get in your way!

 

[EastUS]

Since you are not an IAM member nor involved with negotiations I would suggest you stick to things you actually know about.

"Since you are not an IAM member..." ...nor do I imagine myself knowledgeable on IAM issues. I've the fullest respect for our mechanics, but that's hardly the same as understanding what their union issues are.

Might I note that you're spouting off continuously on pilots' Alpa threads?

"I would suggest you stick to things you actually know about."

 

[700UW]

I talk about union issues, I dont post false information or misinformation as nostradumas does.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Thats the problem, I do understand it. If a UNION merger policy requires arbitration, then it is not policy.

Not a policy? Care to back up that assertion? Here's the Merriam-Webster definition of "policy": a definite course or method of action selected from among alternatives and in light of given conditions to guide and determine present and future decisions. How does your definition differ?

Semantics aside, what you're really saying is that ALPA should impose an integration scheme on its parties. (read: DOH) That's not unionism. A real union wants what's fair and not just what's expedient. Every merger is different thus DOH/LOS isn't necessarily fair. Shock of all shocks, since DOH benefits the East greatly you favor a policy that requires it. And shock of all shocks, I favor a policy that considers the vagaries of each merger individually. Nicolau ruled what he felt was fair and he felt he ruled in accordance with ALPA guidelines. You're free to disagree with him but neither you nor any other Eastie has presented any FACTS indicating that his ruling is unfair. Afterall, the arbitrator is the final arbiter of what constitutes fairness.

ALPA former policy of DOH made more sense in the pre-deregulation era when carriers merged with like carriers. Now any combination of legacy-legacy or legacy-startup mergers can and do happen. ALPA's current policy allows for all things to be considered, obviously most important amongst them career expectations, a wholly subjective idea that can only be fairly defined by a neutral party. And that's what Nicolau did, per Policy.

 

[luvthe9]

http://usairlinepilots.org/card_party.htm BYE BYE ALPA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

ALPA just got handed a HUGE defeat at Skywest as well. Looks like ALPA needs to get their stuff together. Catering to UAL and DAL is costing them dearly. I hear there's an effort at NWA to remove ALPA as well.