ALPA/USAPA topic of the week

[Phoenix]

Perhaps. But it doesn't change the fact that you guys can't debate or argue the facts, ...

LOL!

Let's make it simple. The only relevant fact is I am responsible for being informed when I vote. I am the one responsible for cutting through all the ALPA FPL propaganda or the "ALPA concerned pilot" "Just the Facts" lists.

I am the one responsible for evaluating which Constitution and Bylaws will serve the pilots better, in my opinion for my vote, because remember that catchy little phrase our "union leaders" keep telling us "YOU are ALPA" and it might soon be "YOU are USAPA".

It isn't anyones job to manipulate or buy votes. Its supposed to be a free and fair election, or by definition it isn't. Who would try to buy the election? If they won then they would have no credibility to govern.

 

[tripnic1]

Ooops here we go...more conspiracy theory! The reason we're protecting the 330's is because American Western pilots would have never had them. We brought these to the merger...you didn't.

As far as fake posts...THAT'S MY POINT. You gotta laugh at them. You guys are missing the humor I guess.

I used the same language before?!? Well, I'm the same person, so that makes sense...

By the way...has anyone confirmed that we're NOT going for decades long fences?!? What's the problem talking about the plan anyway...there's NOTHING ALPA is going to be able to do about it!

=TripNic=

 

[EastUS]

Ooops here we go...more conspiracy theory! The reason we're protecting the 330's is because American Western pilots would have never had them. We brought these to the merger...you didn't.

As far as fake posts...THAT'S MY POINT. You gotta laugh at them. You guys are missing the humor I guess.

I used the same language before?!? Well, I'm the same person, so that makes sense...

By the way...has anyone confirmed that we're NOT going for decades long fences?!? What's the problem talking about the plan anyway...there's NOTHING ALPA is going to be able to do about it!

=TripNic=

Hmm..your avatar indicates a USAPA supporter?..and being directly accused earlier of being an Alpo shill by two other posters, now three, didn't/doesn't bother you in the least?..not even a tiny bit?...nor merit even the slightest comment?..interesting...Most anti-alpa folks are a bit touchy where that type of thing's concerned. For the contrary position: Devout Alpoids are typically suffused with a misplaced fantasy of being extremely "clever" and feel quite adept at, and wholly justified with "faking sincerity"..and generally pretending to be people that they're simply not

"After you are done laughing at the one above, try this one out. It was on justplanenews.com for a while, and then disappeared. I think I saw a Westie post it here, but I can't find it."

It seems that you did somehow "find it" though.

"It seems that while ALPA could likely be blowing some smoke our way, USAPA is most definitely over-reaching." "could likely" vs "most definately"...OK

"I've learned to live under 93...so bring it on...I'm ready for YEARS and YEARS of lower pay" Now..that's just adorably "cute"..No one's got any intention for that to happen, nor will it. (you would have done better without the capitals, but nevermind; why sharpen up your game for you). Nice try though

"Somebody likes to think they are an attorney. Pal...you're just a West pilot that's about to be paying USAPA dues. You think being at the bottom of the industry compares to what we have been through? Just wait till we take over...that will be real pain!!" That..shall we say, rather antagonistic bit then followed by: "Good night to all...and remember: USAPA is truly about representing BOTH East and West pilots." Uh Huh....

I'd seriously avoid poker tables were I you...far, far too many "tells"

"Of course...it'd also indicate that they're none-too-bright...in that, if one wants to play such sorry BS...it shouldn't be left to the 11th hour."

 

[nostradamus]

Yes. And quite a small spear it is!

I have posted links that accuse the airline you work for, united, of scabbing. I have accused alpa of turning their back on this. You did not try to defend your united scabs or alpa national turning their back on this. You proceded to use little smiley faces to make your point. There are no links or rebuttles. Why?

 

[767jetz]

There are no links or rebuttles. Why?

Because I wasn't going to take your bait. Sometimes the best way to deal with a child who wants to redirect the conversation and distract everyone with minutia rather than stay on topic, is to not enable them.

But feel free to keep throwing your cute little spear around.

 

[nostradamus]

Because I wasn't going to take your bait. Sometimes the best way to deal with a child who wants to redirect the conversation and distract everyone with minutia rather than stay on topic, is to not enable them.

But feel free to keep throwing your cute little spear around.

The hypocrisy of alpa and its double standard are right on topic. No one defends these allegations with a rebuttal and links to back it up, because they would be fruitless.

 

[EastUS]

"The hypocrisy of alpa and its double standard are right on topic." I couldn't agree more. There's no Hercules in Herndon that's even remotely interested, much less capable of cleaning those stables out though, and no reasoned responses from devout Alpoids will EVER be forthcoming on ANY issues of hypocrisy, misrepresentation, and/or outright lies....period. All you may expect's some patronizing, and disdainfull cheap shot from such folk, that entirely skips over the issues. One must recall that they're "clever" people...just ask them The same sort of "genius" that's given away pensions and obliterated the lifestyles of line pilots for decades apparently has some conversational limits

Sometimes the best way to deal with a child who wants to redirect the conversation and distract everyone ..........., is to not enable them.

This, followed by yet another example of well reasoned argument and wholly exemplified Alpoid intellectual magnificence: "But feel free to keep throwing your cute little spear around."

"Sometimes the best way to deal with a child" (Or, perhaps merely an intrusive mosquitoe).... Yup..(reaches for fly-swatter again) .....

 

[767jetz]

This, followed by yet another example of well reasoned argument and wholly exemplified Alpoid intellectual magnificence: "But feel free to keep throwing your cute little spear around."

So these are your idea of "well reasoned argument that exemplifies the USAPAs intellectual magnificence?" ...

...coupled with your marginal, single digit's worth of airline years....well....there really seems little reason to respond to your babling with any more ferocity and focus than one would offer whilst swatting an intruding mosquitoe.

or this ...

So, in essence, emotional nonsense aside; You have absolutely nothing/nada/zip/zero to offer by way of any compelling reasons to keep Alpa? :blink:

Feb 25 2008, 01:29 AM

It's actually more a case of awareness...I'll leave the "arrogance" to individuals like yourself with far fewer years than 17...or likely even less than half of that.

Or the many other barbs and insults you throw at others?

Pot meet Kettle. If you are going to dish it out, try to keep your emotional whits about you when on the receiving end.

 

[EastUS]

So these are your idea of "well reasoned argument that exemplifies the USAPAs intellectual magnificence?" ...

"QUOTE (EastUS @ Jan 28 2008, 10:19 PM)
So, in essence, emotional nonsense aside; You have absolutely nothing/nada/zip/zero to offer by way of any compelling reasons to keep Alpa?"

I'll go with that one...any thoughts? I can't seem to recall your previously ever listing any compelling reasons.....

"If you are going to dish it out, try to keep your emotional whits about you when on the receiving end." No problem. For insults to be effective, one must respect their sources, and that, very sadly, assures tremendous amounts of safety for most all concerned here it seems. That's "wits" btw..but everyone makes some typos....

 

[tripnic1]

EastUS...

Don't quit flying to become a forensic psychologist...

You question my allegence because I don't get hacked off at someone accusing me of something I'm not. Re-read my posts again and you'll see that I don't take anything seriously on this board. Having been on leave for some time has kept the humor in my outlook. It's black humor, but after the last 30 years, what else are ya going to have around here?

As far as being secure in who I am: Since I've been contaced by BOTH Rowe and Ciabottini about volunteering in the USAPA organization, I'm pretty secure. Even that is funny if you look at it in the right light: ALPA is so screwed up that active reps can go out and recruit for positions in the union they are trying to get to replace ALPA!!

I know one thing: that won't be tolerated in two years when ALPA makes a run at USAPA (two years from now)! USAPA won't be underminded by their own reps the way ALPA is...ALPA has no backbone...AND THATS WHY THEY HAVE TO GO.

...but thanks for you dime-store analysis of my personality...

=TripNic=

 

[sharktooth]

As far as being secure in who I am: Since I've been contaced by BOTH Rowe and Ciabottini about volunteering in the USAPA organization, I'm pretty secure.

I would hope that neither of them would select someone so dumb as to post such a red herring. Go back to your ALPA masters.

 

[EastUS]

EastUS...

Don't quit flying to become a forensic psychologist...

You question my allegence because I don't get hacked off at someone accusing me of something I'm not. Re-read my posts again and you'll see that I don't take anything seriously on this board. Having been on leave for some time has kept the humor in my outlook. It's black humor, but after the last 30 years, what else are ya going to have around here?

As far as being secure in who I am: Since I've been contaced by BOTH Rowe and Ciabottini about volunteering in the USAPA organization, I'm pretty secure. Even that is funny if you look at it in the right light: ALPA is so screwed up that active reps can go out and recruit for positions in the union they are trying to get to replace ALPA!!

I know one thing: that won't be tolerated in two years when ALPA makes a run at USAPA (two years from now)! USAPA won't be underminded by their own reps the way ALPA is...ALPA has no backbone...AND THATS WHY THEY HAVE TO GO.

...but thanks for you dime-store analysis of my personality...

=TripNic=

Wow! A far more "sincere" effort..but still but a "nice try". Gosh!..phraseology/sentence construction/lack of two dimensional "mirth"?.. =sounds like a whole different "person" speaking I did love the one "tough guy" bit about the run on USAPA two years hence....Points for 'cute" and "clever" to you sir/ma'am/group/whatever .

Ummm...riiight...I'll take my "JR Doctor" in forensic psych from your own member profile/postings = "We’re so pissed off about Nicolau, ALPA National, and Douggie that we’re about to cut off our noses to spite our face: AGAIN. Take a step back from the edge. Compare your options side by side. Talk to your spouse. Talk to your friends at other airlines, talk to your friends that have NOTHING to do with airlines.

So what is a 20 year FO to do in times like these? Vote ALPA off the property because they SUCK?!? Yeah, that would sure make us feel good; for about the next four months. Then, we’ll realize we just voted the largest pilot’s union in the world off the property".

It's no issue of "questioning your allegiance"..that kind of crap is for Alpoids, and the very terminology's "interesting"...I don't "question" I think that you're entirely full of Alpoid BS....I question your BS, and I'll just note that I don't personally know you...but..your postings appear extremely cross-threaded.... at the very best, to me...end of statement. "If" you've been approached by USAPA to be any degree of a factor (which I rather doubt)..then there's truly trouble afoot. If, indeed..you've been approached by active Alpoids, that have such poor allegiance to their own "family"...then: you make a fine additional case against their/your ilk. " Since I've been contaced by BOTH.." would be only a morons' utterings in public..there are PM's available.. Secondarilly?..Anyone so "simple" as to note contact points and supposed "credentials" on the internet?...well..sigh: That person would have to be properly dismissed as an utter fool, and hardly any usefull worker. I'd say that you qualify on both counts..the latter being of one in employ for Alpo

Put it another way = If you're mental processes and posting skills are so inept as to engender universal notions of your working for "the other side"...well..words fail me "sir", as to how usefull you would prove It can't be discounted that you may be going for the "If they'd supposedly hire me..they're obviously idiots" notional propoganda though....which already speaks volumes about Alpo..don't you think?

Kindly advice in any case? = Stay away from the poker tables

PS: "Don't quit flying to become a forensic psychologist..." I'm keeping my "day job" in any case..which hasn't squat to do with this pathetic airline, or Alpo..thank God

 

[nostradamus]

New York times had an article yesterday about pilots when airlines merge. I respect the man that is responsible for USAPA mentioned in this article. I have not met him but I envy his courage.

Thank you Mr Bradford.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."
-- Theodore Roosevelt

Pilots’ Battles Over Seniority Play Havoc With Airline Mergers

 

[nostradamus]

Sometimes the New York Times articles time out I hope the moderator allows the extra bandwidth, just in case this happens. I have pasted it below. Thank You.


Pilots’ Battles Over Seniority Play Havoc With Airline Mergers New York Times article February 27, 2008

Stephen Bradford, a US Airways pilot since 1986, is leading a push to form a new union, the US Airline Pilots Association.

Article Tools Sponsored By
By JEFF BAILEY
Published: February 27, 2008

Merger talks between Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines have been held up for a couple of weeks while pilots at each carrier discuss how to combine their union seniority lists.

How long can such a procedural matter take to resolve? If the last big airline merger is any guide, the answer is 28 months. And counting.

The battle over seniority between US Airways and America West has turned into one of the country’s nastiest union brawls. And it is forcing the company to continue operating, in some ways, as two separate carriers.

The Delta and Northwest pilot groups, who were asked by management to negotiate a seniority agreement before a merger deal could be announced, share a problem with their contentious colleagues: there is an age mismatch, with Delta employing the younger group.

On Tuesday, Delta’s chief executive, Richard Anderson, sent a memo to update employees on merger talks. Without mentioning Northwest, the memo said, “To date, we have not arrived at a potential transaction that meets all of our principles.â€￾ Among the principles Mr. Anderson listed was “that the seniority of our people is protected.â€￾

Mr. Anderson said in the memo that Delta would “continue to look at strategic alternativesâ€￾ while also pushing forward with the airline’s standalone plan. A spokeswoman, Betsy Talton, would not elaborate.

Douglas Steenland, chief executive of Northwest, also sent a note to workers Tuesday, and he, too, took a cautious tone in addressing a merger, while not naming Delta.

“We continue to believe that consolidation among the network carriers is inevitable,â€￾ Mr. Steenland said in the memo. Among other things, a merger would need to “provide greater long-term security and growth opportunities for our employees,â€￾ he added. “We continue to consider strategic alternatives based on these criteria.â€￾

An age mismatch raises the stakes in any melding of seniority lists, with the potential for junior pilots to leapfrog more senior ones and take away more lucrative and attractive assignments. The lists are used to decide who is a captain and who is a co-pilot, pay rates, work schedules, how big an airplane a pilot gets to fly, and who is laid off first in a downturn.

“Seniority — it’s very sacred ground,â€￾ said Jack Stephan, who heads the Air Line Pilots Association local for the 2,700 pilots from the old US Airways side of that merger.

Even if union leaders at Northwest and Delta agree to a seniority plan, clearing a path for the largest airline merger ever, the deal could be scuttled months later if rank-and-file pilots decide the plan treats them unfairly.

A union spokeswoman for the 6,300 Delta pilots, Kelly Regus, declined to comment. Union officials for the 4,500 Northwest pilots did not return calls.

The US Airways dispute shows how hard times in the industry — including pay cuts, lost pensions and longer work hours — have brought out the fratricidal tendencies of pilots.

Each side, though represented by the same union, pushed seniority arrangements that would have put pilots on the other side toward the bottom of the list. They refused to compromise.

And an arbitrator’s award last May favored the America West pilots, setting off a campaign to decertify the union that has gathered strong support from old US Airways pilots, who outnumber their America West colleagues.

If a new union, the US Airline Pilots Association, wins an election starting next month to represent pilots at the merged airline, it said it would try to scrap the arbitrator’s award and install a seniority list based on date of hire. That would heavily favor the older pilots from the old US Airways side.

If that happens, said John McIlvenna, who heads the union local for the 1,500 former America West pilots, “we will be in all-out warfare.â€￾

Regardless of the outcome, US Airways and its pilots face months, or even years, of litigation over the seniority list.

This turmoil makes clear why Delta and Northwest management want a seniority deal before they announce a merger. If a deal is made, it could prompt other airline mergers, but each would have to address pilot seniority.

The Delta pilots are younger, on average, in large part because more than 1,100 Delta pilots took early retirement in 2005 to collect lump-sum pensions before the carrier’s bankruptcy led it to terminate its pension plan.

So, a merged list based strictly on date of hire would favor Northwest pilots. A list that simply shuffles in the two groups — one from Northwest, one from Delta, and so on — would put younger Delta pilots ahead of older Northwest colleagues.

The union also uses what are known as fences to protect groups of pilots from being displaced. A portion of the fleet, say, can be reserved for a set number of years to be piloted by those who currently fly those planes.

But the US Airways case suggests that making a seniority deal — and making one that sticks — will be difficult.

When US Airways and America West merged in the fall of 2005, pilot officials from both sides expressed optimism that seniority could be worked out in a matter of months. But a year of direct talks failed. A mediator in October 2006 could not bring them together. So they entered binding arbitration before a panel led by George Nicolau, an 82-year-old New York arbitrator with experience in seniority disputes.

“All of us on the board kept saying, ‘Sit down, work this through,’ â€￾ Mr. Nicolau said. But he added: “The intransigence worked all the way through. We simply couldn’t shake them.â€￾

The US Airways pilots felt that after two bankruptcies and lost pensions, they needed to make up ground, and so they proposed a list that had 900 or so US Airways pilots atop it and that would have placed some furloughed US Airways pilots above active America West pilots.

The America West pilots, meanwhile, argued that their company saved US Airways from liquidation. So they wanted a list shuffling the two groups together, which essentially ignored date of hire. And they wanted hundreds of US Airways pilots at the bottom of the list so that America West pilots would be insulated from layoffs.

“Neither side blinked,â€￾ said Mr. Stephan, the union chief from the US Airways side.

The arbitrator’s award put 423 US Airways pilots at the top, to keep them on international routes they coveted, but mostly shuffled the two lists together, a huge win for the much younger America West pilots.

The US Airways pilots sued to overturn the decision. But a splinter group formed US Airline Pilots and quickly gathered enough authorization votes to force a union election. If those who signed authorization cards vote for the new union, it would have enough votes to oust the Air Line Pilots Association and represent both old US Airways pilots, known as the East, and America West pilots.

“The Nicolau award enraged the East pilots,â€￾ said Scott Theuer, an officer of the group seeking to oust the old union. “We have a lot to recoup.â€￾ The group said, however, that it would offer fences to America West pilots to preserve their current jobs.

The new group is led by Stephen Bradford, 54, a US Airways pilot since 1986. Like many, he has been promoted to captain and twice bounced back to first officer status as the airline shrank. The last time, between pay-level cuts and losing his captain’s status, his pay was reduced by more than $100,000. His colleague, Mr. Theuer, said: “The East pilots had lost so much over the years. Seniority was all we had left.â€￾

 

[nostradamus]

Regarding the NY Times article.

“Seniority — it’s very sacred ground,â€￾ said Jack Stephan, who heads the Air Line Pilots Association local for the 2,700 pilots from the old US Airways side of that merger.

"Neither side blinked,â€￾ said Mr. Stephan, the union chief from the US Airways side.

Jack, this was a New York Times article, is that the best you can do? At least the america west pilot's alpa leader threatened to burn the house down, although he criticized our side for suggesting the same.

Jack, one of these days you will be sitting in your nice house next to the fireplace drooling, after your cushy future national ALPA job is over when all is said and done, wishing you could go back in time. What is best for you is not the best for the pilots you are allegedly leading.