ALPA/USAPA topic of the week

[nostradamus]

Well at least two east pilots are being honest about their wishes. Both you and Autofixer believe that in the next downturn the previously furloughed east pilots should be on line and the previously working and never furloughed west pilots should be on the street.

I know your convoluted logic about time served but please explain how this arrangement, an employed pilot trading places with a furloughed pilot, is not a windfall for the east pilot group.

What was america wests future if they did not merge with usairways? Specifically what did america west bring to the combination?

 

[ableoneable]

It has NOTHING to do with who was or wasn't furloughed. It has to do with who has invested the MOST TIME in making the airline a success. There is no reason apilot with 14 yaers service should be furloughed before one with three or four, NO MATTER WHO WAS FURLOUGHED WHEN. They're all back now. That's ALL THAT MATTERS.

Well I see where oldie stands.

Apparently he believes that there should be a bump/flush and the east and west pilots should exchange places as soon as possible. I should move from the left seat to the furlough list and a furloughee should move from the street to my seat.

This is fair and just because seniority is universal when applied to USAir, but tied to a carrier when employed by TWA, Eastern, American, United and then America West.

According to Oldie there is a national seniority list for the east pilots but not for a pilot hired by any other carrier. I see.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Well I see where oldie stands.

Apparently he believes that there should be a bump/flush and the east and west pilots should exchange places as soon as possible. I should move from the left seat to the furlough list and a furloughee should move from the street to my seat.

This is fair and just because seniority is universal when applied to USAir, but tied to a carrier when employed by TWA, Eastern, American, United and then America West.

According to Oldie there is a national seniority list for the east pilots but not for a pilot hired by any other carrier. I see.

There should be a national seniority list for ALL carriers, called Date-Of-Hire. Until that happens, ALPA and other unions will suffer in-fighting just like it is suffering now. The whole DAL-NWAC merger is probably off now due to disagreements on this. Unions were founded on the notion that seniority (it's called that because it's based on service TIME with the company, not some made up formula that suits some senile arbitrator) is important for maintenance of everyone's careers. The entire payscale system is based around the fact that experience is a marketable commodity. Now, however, ALPA disagrees with this basic union tenet.

There, did I spell it out any more clearly for you?

 

[nostradamus]

doug parker was the first airline ceo in line, by far, to ask for a government loan after 911. Most airline execs had the respect to not show up begging for an airline loan offered by the government, doug parker was not included in this dignity of respect and patience.

doug parker first in line, for 911 airline loans government web site click here and scroll to bottom, to see the bottom feeder.

 

[ableoneable]

What was america wests future if they did not merge with usairways? Specifically what did america west bring to the combination?

I should of expected this. Nostradamus, you are never able to refute an argument or answer a question so you invariably change tack and bring up something unrelated.

I thought the argument of the moment was that career expectations don't count for much but time dedicated to USAir does?

However, for the hell of it I will answer your latest non-sequitur.

It was Doug Parker that arranged for the financing that made the merger possible. As soon as it was announced America West also covered USAir's payroll.

If Parker had been uninterested in USAir they would have ceased operations and their assets would have been disposed of through chapter 7. I know you guys think it would have lasted but there was no money left. This is why America West had to cover payroll before the merger was consummated.

Doug Parker would have continued to shop for a merger partner. He tried ATA but was blocked. Had USAir not worked out he would have moved on to number three.

So in answer to your question. What did America West bring to the combination? First and foremost they brought the survival of USAir. Without America West, Usair would look much like Eastern and Pan AM.

 

[700UW]

Bruce Lakefield and John Luth from Seabury and Associates raised the money for the merger, US all ready had ZW and RP's investment plus $700 Million in the bank.

The Facts

 

[nostradamus]

I should of expected this. Nostradamus, you are never able to refute an argument or answer a question so you invariably change tack and bring up something unrelated.

I thought the argument of the moment was that career expectations don't count for much but time dedicated to USAir does?

However, for the hell of it I will answer your latest non-sequitur.

It was Doug Parker that arranged for the financing that made the merger possible. As soon as it was announced America West also covered USAir's payroll.

If Parker had been uninterested in USAir they would have ceased operations and their assets would have been disposed of through chapter 7. I know you guys think it would have lasted but there was no money left. This is why America West had to cover payroll before the merger was consummated.

Doug Parker would have continued to shop for a merger partner. He tried ATA but was blocked. Had USAir not worked out he would have moved on to number three.

ii"So in answer to your question. What did America West bring to the combination? First and foremost they brought the survival of USAir. Without America West, Usair would look much like Eastern and Pan AM.

My question unableoneable was; What did america west bring to this combination.

your quote;

"It was Doug Parker that arranged for the financing that made the merger possible."

Please show proof of this. I allege that your four time convicted alcoholic ceo doug parker, brought nothing but a damaged liver. Some may look at this as personal, these employees and investors in my eyes are enablers that all people with an addiction seek.

Finance facts for US Airways click here, I am confused unable I do not see doug money here.

 

[ableoneable]

There should be a national seniority list for ALL carriers, called Date-Of-Hire. Until that happens, ALPA and other unions will suffer in-fighting just like it is suffering now. The whole DAL-NWAC merger is probably off now due to disagreements on this. Unions were founded on the notion that seniority (it's called that because it's based on service TIME with the company, not some made up formula that suits some senile arbitrator) is important for maintenance of everyone's careers. The entire payscale system is based around the fact that experience is a marketable commodity. Now, however, ALPA disagrees with this basic union tenet.

There, did I spell it out any more clearly for you?

Actually no.

Let's take a look at what you said.

You say that there should be a national seniority list. Maybie so, but right now there is not and it is very unlikely that it will ever happen. You still want to pretend that one exits. Only the theoretical national list you propose to use only recognizes the DOH of the east pilots. Any pilot hired at Eastern, TWA, American etc. and then subsequently hired by America West does not benefit.

Second you label the arbitrator senile. This exposes you as the ill informed mal-content that you are. Neither ALPA neutral nor any of the lawyers or negotiators from either side share your opinion.

You further state that the pay-scale is based around experience as a marketable commodity. This is patently false. I am not even going to take the time to try and explain that one to you.

If experience is the metric let's use airbus time for airbus pilots. Most of our bus captains have 12,000+ in type. By your logic none of those easties should be in the left seat

 

[ableoneable]

Bruce Lakefield and John Luth from Seabury and Associates raised the money for the merger, US all ready had ZW and RP's investment plus $700 Million in the bank.

The Facts

What you have failed to grasp is that Mssrs. Lakefield and Luth were able to raise the money only because they had an offer from Doug Parker in hand.

Also the 700 million figure is misleading. It was not 700 million in unrestricted cash. The bulk of that money was earmarked by the bankruptcy court and unavailable to finance Usair's operations.

This is why it was necessary for America West to begin covering payroll expenses before the merger financing was in place.

 

[BoeingBoy]

US all ready had ZW and RP's investment plus $700 Million in the bank.

You might want to check your "facts"......

RP's investment was only going to come upon BK exit, unlike ZW's DIP financing which converted to an investment upon exit (and ZW's DIP money was gone within 1-1/2 months of receipt of the final installment).

At the end of May 2005, US was down to about $200 million in spendable cash after losing $40 million that month alone. Spendable cash was low enough that US had to ask the ATSB for further relief from the "cash collateral" provisions of the loan agreement - the third such request.

Jim

 

[ableoneable]

My question unableoneable was; What did america west bring to this combination.

your quote;

"It was Doug Parker that arranged for the financing that made the merger possible."

Please show proof of this. I allege that your four time convicted alcoholic ceo doug parker, brought nothing but a damaged liver. Some may look at this as personal, these employees and investors in my eyes are enablers that all people with an addiction seek.

Finance facts for US Airways click here, I am confused unable I do not see doug money here.

So it is your contention that the money would have been raised and USAir would have continued on its merry way even if Doug Parker and America West were not in the picture.

I see. If you are this deluded the only thing I could do to convince you would be to produce the minutes of the boardroom discussions at the time of the merger. Unfortunately I am unable to do that so you will continue to live under the assumption that USair was going to continue hemorrhaging cash yet survive indefinitely.

Back to my original question. It was about seniority and the fact that you believe exchanging west pilots and east furloughees is fair, equitable and in no way an east windfall.

 

[nostradamus]

You might want to check your "facts"......

RP's investment was only going to come upon BK exit, unlike ZW's DIP financing which converted to an investment upon exit (and ZW's DIP money was gone within 1-1/2 months of receipt of the final installment.

At the end of May 2005, US was down to about $200 million in spendable cash after losing $40 million that month alone. Spendable cash was low enough that US had to ask the ATSB for further relief from the "cash collateral" provisions of the loan agreement - the third such request.

Jim

What did america west bring to the merger? A drunk ceo only. Please try to defend america west other than the facts I provided.

 

[ableoneable]

What did america west bring to the merger? A drunk ceo only. Please try to defend america west other than the facts I provided.

No America West = No chapter 11 exit financing. Clear enough?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

A1A,
check out the timeline provided by the Seabury Group.

http://www.seaburygroup.com/news/USAirways...ne_20051031.pdf

It might help with your understanding.

 

[ableoneable]

A1A,
check out the timeline provided by the Seabury Group.

http://www.seaburygroup.com/news/USAirways...ne_20051031.pdf

It might help with your understanding.

I understand just fine. You seem to miss the fact that the only reason that the Seabury group participated in this round of refinance is because America West was there.

That is why the report is titled: USAirways reorganization and merger with America West Airlines.

America West was the cause, the reorganization was the effect. Merger arrangements had started 18 months before the announcement and also before the first entry in the timeline.