ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week with a Poll 3/16-22

[EastUS]

One of the most level headed messages I have seen to date, forwarded to me today.

Absolutely…nothing.
Scola

That's from Scola?..and it's supposedly the least bit objective/level-headed/not-standard Alpa FUD, with a "twist" of lime/"sincerity" ???? "Realize that I am neither an ALPA cheerleader.."??? This is a joke, right? Spare us all.

"Let’s be clear about one thing; the day will come when we as original East pilots have no control over what happens within our own union..." Perhaps he's entirely missed the fact that said day came a very long while back, but he was probably still too busy as a devout Alpoid FPL/Commit-me member/etc type to notice at the time....sheesh.

 

[700UW]

There is cut and paste and there are links.



Facts vs paste

You want the link?

What I posted is directly from US Airways 2006 Annual Report filed with the SEC, you know the facts of the annual report which US could get in legal trouble if they provided the SEC with false information.

2006 Annual Report

There is the link to the SEC filing, those are legal documents where I got the information.

Not a report prepared by a Consultant group for information.

Also the APA took concession at AA without AA being in Chapter 11.

 

[Tiger 1050]

america west pilots undercut real pilots for years, click here for the wages of pilots infor.

The moderator allowed a video that animated the USAPA union pilots, this is my retort.



you undercut pilot pay for years america west pilots, click here this bud is for you.

Well all I have to say is where were you? Why weren't you there right along side us helping to ensure we got the same rates as you? For all the "this is how a real union works" rhetoric your real life example falls well short of your bombast.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,

Didn't the combined financing that the merger brought in allow both ATSB loans to be paid off, at a profit to Uncle Sam?

After the merger, the two ATSB-backed loans (US and HP's separate loans) were first resold to other institutions, removing the ATSB from the picture. The resulting "new" loans were payed off in 2006 with part of the proceeds of a $1.25 billion loan with GECC acting as lead lender. That was in turn paid off in 2007 with part of the proceeds of a $1.6 billion loan package with Citi acting as lead lender.

Each of these refinancing's was announced publicly as they occurred, along with SEC filings for each. They're also discussed in the last annual report. The only way that one could claim that US repaid HP's loan is by using a semantic trick - conveniently omit that it was the "new" combined US that paid off the loans of both "old" US and HP. Even then, it was done with the "robbing Peter to pay Paul" method of borrowing money to repay borrowed money - no different than you or I paying off a mortgage by taking out a new, bigger mortgage.

On March 23, 2007, US Airways Group entered into a new term loan credit facility with Citicorp North America, Inc., as administrative agent, and a syndicate of lenders pursuant to which the Company borrowed an aggregate principal amount of $1.6 billion. US Airways is a guarantor of the Citicorp credit facility.

The proceeds of the Citicorp credit facility were used to repay in full the following indebtedness:

• The amended and restated loan agreement, dated April 7, 2006, entered into by US Airways Group with General Electric Capital Corporation (“GECCâ€￾) and a syndicate of lenders. At the time of the repayment, the total outstanding balance of the loan was $1.25 billion.

Annual Report for 2007

TEMPE, Ariz., Oct. 19 [2005-Jim] /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- US Airways Group, Inc., (LCC - news) today announced that debt totaling $777 million, of which $752 million was backed by the government, has been sold at a slight premium to par to 13 fixed income investors. These loans were granted to the former America West Airlines and US Airways in the aftermath of Sept. 11, 2001. The total current outstanding balance of these loans is $832 million, with $55 million held by two other existing investors. Terms associated with those loans remain unchanged, with the former America West loan terminating in 2008 and the former US Airways loan terminating in 2010.

US Airways Group Chairman, President and CEO Doug Parker said, "Today's announcement signifies the payoff of both the former America West and US Airways government-backed loans. Not only has the government received full payment of its original loans, with interest and fees totaling approximately $180 million, taxpayers also received an additional $116 million earlier this month when the ATSB sold warrants associated with America West's original loan.

US Airways Press Release

TEMPE, Ariz., April 12 [2006-Jim][/i] /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- US Airways Group, Inc. (NYSE: LCC) today announced that it has completed a $1.25 billion debt refinancing transaction. The new loan, which was underwritten by GE Commercial Finance and Morgan Stanley Senior Funding, will bear interest at LIBOR plus 3.50 percent. The margin over LIBOR is reduced as the loan is paid down and can be as low as LIBOR plus 2.50 percent if the loan balance is $600 million or less. At launch in March, the transaction was targeted to raise $1.1 billion. It was subsequently increased by $150 million in April in response to the transaction being well oversubscribed. The term of the loan is five years with the entire principal amount payable in full at maturity.

The refinancing provides significant liquidity over the next five years by reducing principal payments and lowering near-term interest expense. Upon funding of the original $1.1 billion, the Company extinguished four separate debt facilities, including both the former America West and US Airways Air Transportation Stabilization Board loans of $250 million and $551 million, respectively; a General Electric Capital Corporation loan of $111 million; and a loan from an affiliate of Airbus of $161 million.[/i]

US Airways Press Release

TEMPE, Ariz., March 26 [2007-Jim] /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- US Airways Group, Inc. (NYSE: LCC) today announced that it has completed a $1.6 billion debt refinancing transaction. The new loan, which was arranged by Citigroup Global Markets Inc. and Morgan Stanley Senior Funding, Inc., as Joint Lead Arrangers, will bear interest at LIBOR plus 2.50 percent.

The refinancing improves liquidity over the next seven years by reducing principal payments and lowering near-term interest expense. Upon funding, the Company extinguished two separate debt facilities: a $1.25 billion senior secured credit facility and a $325 million unsecured debt facility. The additional $25 million will be used for general corporate purposes.

US Airways Press Release

Jim

 

[pilot]

That's from Scola?..and it's supposedly the least bit objective/level-headed/not-standard Alpa FUD, with a "twist" of lime/"sincerity" ???? "Realize that I am neither an ALPA cheerleader.."??? This is a joke, right? Spare us all.

"Let’s be clear about one thing; the day will come when we as original East pilots have no control over what happens within our own union..." Perhaps he's entirely missed the fact that said day came a very long while back, but he was probably still too busy as a devout Alpoid FPL/Commit-me member/etc type to notice at the time....sheesh.

The "level headed" guy, Scola, is one of the many reasons we find ourselves voting for a new union. He was one of the boys who voted away our pension without giving the membership a chance to vote on the issue. He personifies ALPA.

Yep, it's really scary ousting ALPA and starting our own representation. American and Southwest are sure messed up. I don't know how we'll ever be able to pull it off. There's just no way we are going to be able to make it without ALPA. American and Southwest pilot groups are imploding and ready to fail.

Nope, I see no way without ALPA. They're the only way for us to prosper.

Seriously though, after reading the stuff ALPA has been putting out campaigning for us to keep them I can't help but wonder if they aren't USAPA's best advertisements.

pilot

 

[end_of_alpa]

One of the most level headed messages I have seen to date, forwarded to me today.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

To this point, I have not entered into any debate over the merits of ALPA vs
USAPA, nor is it my intent to do so now. I will, however, share with you
some thoughts I have on our present representational predicament; thoughts
which aren’t likely to make supporters of either union very happy.

Realize that I am neither an ALPA cheerleader nor a USAPA bandwagoneer. One
Association has led us to where we are today and the other appears to have
no realistic prospect of arriving where their “leadership†promises to take
us in the future.

To tell you the truth, I find no solace in voting for either.

Understand that I do not believe changing associations is necessarily a bad
thing so long as that change would be to the right association, under the
right circumstances, at the right time, with support of the vast majority of
East and West pilots. I have no thoughts on what the “right associationâ€,
under “the right circumstancesâ€, “at the right time†would entail; but
USAPA doesn’t appear to qualify for the job under any of those prerequisites


I’ve made a cognitive effort to reconcile variables which one must attend to
when change is proposed; since initiating change without attempting to
foresee as many long-range implications as can be envisioned, will often
lend a person to venture off onto a fool’s errand. I wish I could tell you
otherwise, but none of the long-range indicators appear to impart a belief
that USAPA has any chance for long-term survival as a bargaining agent.

No doubt you remember the statement, “No bucks; no Buck Rogers!â€

It’s a quote from the movie “The Right Stuffâ€.

That statement highlights the most basic of organizational needs…M O N E Y!!


I have little doubt that money will be the most serious problem among many
for USAPA.

It will, however, likely be a rather short-term problem; but not in the
sense you might be thinking.

I keep asking myself the following questions in relation to money and USAPA
and as of yet have realized no good answers:

1. “If USAPA wins, where is the money going to come from to run the
organization, pay the bills and defend against the lawsuits when 2000+
pilots refuse to pay their dues and assessments?â€

2. “How does USAPA intend to collect monies from the 2000+ pilots who
refuse to pay their dues and assessments?â€

3. “How loud will the laughter emanating from the top floor of the
Tempe Tower be, when USAPA leadership attempts to invoke Section 29 of the
working agreement and ask Al Hemenway to terminate almost one-half of the
pilot group for non-dues & assessment payment?â€

I see little hope of long-term survival of an organization that can neither
pay its bills nor fairly represent all of the “indentured†membership it
will “enslaveâ€, especially those out West. A person has to be obtuse to
believe that this pilot group will ever be “one†under USAPA.

Let’s be clear about one thing; the day will come when we as original East
pilots have no control over what happens within our own union no matter
which union triumphs in the election, and that day will come much sooner
than most people realize. As retirements kick back in, the cross-over point
for a majority power shift to the West should occur within the decade.

If anyone thinks that the West won’t exact a measure of revenge upon the
remaining East pilots when they have the numbers to decide who the
Collective Bargaining Agent will be, as well as the content and context of
the language to be negotiated into any Working Agreement; has naïve notions
of what their future prospects here entail.

When the West has the majority numbers and has had its fill of USAPA (which
will likely be the day it has majority numbers) ALPA National will commence
an organizational drive and provide the majority West pilots with every
available resource to return AAA to “the fold†as they did with Continental
and FedEx. You should expect ALPA to be voted back onto the property at
that time (assuming, of course it is voted off in the first place). That,
my friends, would mean that our current emotion-filled representational
electoral process will end up historically as nothing more than an exercise
in futility.

Hope is a great thing, and the prospect of a new union brings hope to those
who have none based on the egregious nature of the seniority award. It is
quite likely short-sighted false hope which is destined to lead our East
pilot group down the path towards one of the most ill-conceived strategic
blunders in the history of organized labor.

USAPA may win the representational election by a narrow margin, and get to
“play†bargaining agent for a little while…a very little while in historical
terms. Regardless of that possibility; no matter how many times I “click my
heels†and wish I was “back in Kansas†with those of you dreaming of a
better place (seniority wise), I can’t conceive how USAPA will be able to
absolve us from Nic2.

I pride myself on being a positive thinker and try not to let what goes on
around here affect me too much. I’ve stayed pretty well detached from the
representational situation because when I look out into the future I don’t
have any warm-fuzzy feelings concerning what’s about to happen no matter
which way the election turns out.

One thing however is crystal clear to me whether ALPA remains or USAPA
reins:

Nothing good is going to come from any of this nonsense.

Absolutely…nothing.
Scola

There are several "scolas" on the list so it is hard to say who writes this. The Scola I know is a hard and fast ALPA man, which leads me to believe this is NOT him. What I will agree with, however, is that the "good" that will come out of this will not be seen for quite sometime. What I eventually see, however, is a FEDERAL government solution, such as the latest passage of Allegheny-Mohawk merger provisions. If you noticed the news lately, Delta pilots rejected arbitration....presuming of course, ALPA arbitration.....knowing that it would most likely disadvantage their "younger" workforce in favor of the NWA pilots if a merger were to occur.

There is NO solution absent a NATIONAL METHOD OF DETERMINATION FOR SENIORITY UNDER ONE STANDARD. A standard that separates pilots from their companies and places them in step with their rank and file.

"Delta Pilots Nix Arbitration Overture Delta Pilots Reject Arbitration With Northwest Pilots That May Have Eased Combo of Carriers"

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080319/delta_north...1&printer=1

Aloha, an ALPA carrier, filed for bankruptcy complaining Mesa, another ALPA carrier, knew their business plan.

"The airline said in its filing that it was unable to generate sufficient revenue due to what it called "predatory pricing" by Mesa Air Group's go! airline."

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/t...hapter-11_N.htm

Who is caught in the middle? Why, ALPA pilots, of course. Which puts ALL OF US right back in the middle.

 

[nostradamus]

In a previous post of former airlines represented by alpa, I neglected to mention Braniff Airways. Many of these pilots were hired by Piedmont airlines after Braniff shut down. I flew with a bunch of these gentlemen, great guys.

Click here to find out what a alpa negotiated contract is worth today.

 

[end_of_alpa]

http://crewroom.alpa.org/awa/DesktopModule...ocumentID=42422

The Latest AWA MEC Chaiman's message quotes Behncke, who stated:

"Dave Behncke's worst nightmare was that a disgruntled pilot group on a major airline would form a company union." - Flying the Line

ALPA brags in the latest Airline Pilot issue on April 2008 at page 20 that "ALPA Invented the Pilot Contract":

"ALPA didn't ink the first-ever pilot contract with an airline until May 1939, nearly 8 years after the Association officially came into being."

Does ALPA tell us WHO this airline is? I will....

"The American pilots has always been Behncke's tough guys. His solid supporters. They were the first to organize 100%, and the first to negotiate a contract in May of 1939. They were called "the Rock on which ALPA was built."

http://1.usairlinepilots.org/library/apa.pdf

Now ALPA wants us BACK?

We ALL can work this out IF West and East can come together and throw Nicolau away. That I am confident of. Is it possible for us to try if the election goes USAPA's way?

 

[sharktooth]

Sharktooth,

Sorry I posted my post after working last night.



Then US borrowed over $1 billion from GECAS and paid off those loans and now owe GECAS.

Thank you very much. Sounds very much like some homeowners nowadays. Leveraged to the max using the kids college fund. Except US is mortgaging their future.

I am seeing a $ 24 million gain for those 13 investors over six months. Must be nice. With Citibank as the agent and guarantor (interesting in itself - legal?) and, at most 10% down, those 13 "investors" "earned" $24 million on $78 million over six months. Not counting interest. That is quite an ROI.

 

[ClueByFour]

So, the angry FO club pulls a roadshow in PHX, is confronted about the fact that USAPA is really all about stapling the west (and giving concessions to Tempe to do so) and wonders why the reception was not warm.

It's a shame that approach is not going to work.

 

[nostradamus]

So, the angry FO club pulls a roadshow in PHX, is confronted about the fact that USAPA is really all about stapling the west (and giving concessions to Tempe to do so) and wonders why the reception was not warm.

It's a shame that approach is not going to work.

The USAPA knew ahead of time that the reception would be borderline mob action, they showed up anyways. I watched the video, which has a link on this message thread. The actions of the USAPA reps was professional and patient. The mob action of the america west pilots prove that they are not quite the cream of the pilot gene pool.

It took courage for them to hold a road show in phx.

 

[sharktooth]

One of the most level headed messages I have seen to date, forwarded to me today.

<snip>

Scola

Pretty pessimistic to me. Worst case scenario whichever way it goes requiring extreme position in either case. Apparently unconscious to the fact that life is rarely as simple as one-dimension. Make no mistake, I believe there is a rightful place in this world for discussions about falling off a cliff, if only to set boundaries. His comments would hardly be considered, "level-headed" unless you are viewing the world from the bottom of your glass, also.

and would that be D.S., ALPA lover, PI MEC booster and (used to be) council scheduling dude?

 

[sharktooth]

It looks like $100+/bbl oil has helped take down the first victim. The Honolulu Star-Bulletin is reporting that ALOHA might soon say aloha.

They just became the first to file for CH11 protection.

Who will be next?

Just to try to get you to think in deeper terms than "shock and awe", why would the rising cost of oil affect one carrier over another? Is it possible that Aloha management reduced margins so far (a management decision that seems to mirror Tempe) that an unexpectedly slight decrease in revenue tips them over the edge?

Think of oil prices as simply one link in a long chain that finally leads to an accident. Many view oil prices as the tide that should raise all the boats at the same time. However, some boats have shorter anchor chains than others.

 

[sharktooth]

Well all I have to say is where were you? Why weren't you there right along side us helping to ensure we got the same rates as you? For all the "this is how a real union works" rhetoric your real life example falls well short of your bombast.

So, depending on ALPA National to maximize your compensation didn't work out so well, did it? Isn't that the point of USAPA?

 

[BoeingBoy]

However, some boats have shorter anchor chains than others.

And some boats have their anchor chains shortened by the competition. It didn't help Aloha to be competing with Mesa's Go! operation which sold tickets well below cost while being subsidized by US, UA, etc through fee for departure contracts.....

You're right - fuel prices weren't the only factor in Aloha's filing but it was probably the final straw that broke the camel's back.

Jim