ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week with a Poll 3/16-22

[CactusFlyr]

For what little it's worth (probably 2 cents or so); I personally, wouldn't have a problem with a divison of additional flying. I made suggestions about fences and additional flying long ago..and was immediately drowned out by all the "Booshaka's"..."Final and Binding!!"..."It's OVER!!!".."Ho Ho Ho..ST Nic..!!" etc/ad naseum. Of course: We now "fearfully" must also face the entire "Army" of Leonidas and prepare for "All out Warfare" at the behest of some MEC "War Chief" with all of ten years at AWA. Time tends to color one's perspectives, as I noted in my above post.....enough said by me on that.

Regardless of the emotional flavoring of events: I'd be the grossest of hypocrites to have suggested post-Nic negotiations, and now be conveniently deaf to thoughts from the west merely because of USAPA's likely election.

What's your current suggestion sir?

Actually, additional flying was/is covered by the TA. The IOU thing came later.....

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

For what little it's worth (probably 2 cents or so); I personally, wouldn't have a problem with a divison of additional flying. I made suggestions about fences and additional flying long ago..and was immediately drowned out by all the "Booshaka's"..."Final and Binding!!"..."It's OVER!!!".."Ho Ho Ho..ST Nic..!!" etc/ad naseum. Of course: We now "fearfully" must also face the entire "Army" of Leonidas and prepare for "All out Warfare" at the behest of some MEC "War Chief" with all of ten years at AWA. Time tends to color one's perspectives, as I noted in my above post.....enough said by me on that.

Regardless of the emotional flavoring of events: I'd be the grossest of hypocrites to have suggested post-Nic negotiations, and now be conveniently deaf to thoughts from the west merely because of USAPA's likely election.

What's your current suggestion sir?

Regarding the first paragraph I think you should fear yourselves more than our ten year war chief.

Regarding the second, no you are not a hypocrite, but you are a little transparent. Will you listen? Yea probably. Will you care? No, probably not. The whole idea behind usapa is to render us out west moot, everything said otherwise is just window dressing.

 

[Tiger 1050]

For what little it's worth; I personally, wouldn't have a problem with a divison of additional flying. I made suggestions about fences and additional flying long ago..and was immediately drowned out by all the "Booshaka's"..."Final and Binding!!"..."It's OVER!!!".."Ho Ho Ho..ST Nic..!!" etc/ad naseum.

What's your current suggestion sir?

There are far smarter folks than I able to tackle this question. But for what it's worth... How about some proportional division of all future a/c deliveries (of course I would include the 190's/757's and any 330's delivered since 19th of May '05)? Of course this would/must include a domicile within a domicile setup. I say this so as to protect "seniority" within our respective CBA's until a combined CBA is negotiated and passed. Obviously the company wants the 190's, for example, to fly out east due to the nature of the market so we need some sort of access to these airplanes for the west. Again a domicile within a domicile could be one possibility.

A far more important question for me and my peers here in the west is how to rectify the issue concerning the upgrades the east has enjoyed. Over 400!!!!! We've had roughly 40. This disparity is not fair no matter how you want justify it. And when one uses terms like "lifetime fence" it has the effect of steam under ones collar...

Anyhow I really do not have the answers to our questions. But open and honest debate is one element that should be sought after continually until a solution is reached. From my own point of view USAPA seems more intent on dictating to me and my peers rather than debating the issue.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

The east no matter what you guys think was furloughing and returning aircraft at the time of the merger. The west, while not taking deliveries of widebody a/c, was growing and hiring pilots. So for one to state that you can keep your west job/seat according to your expectations prior to the merger means the east should expect nothing less. Well what do we do about the 190's? The 3 757's? What about the additional 330's? Why do you capture over 400 upgrades while we sit stagnate?

Dialogue...
The East was returning aircraft because they were under bankruptcy protection and the deal makers knew what they wanted the combined entity to look like. Bad for us, yes because our junior carried the load (furlough ) for the good of the whole. (This is also the reason our contract was closer to yours, with exceptions, i.e. DC contributions, vacation, profit sharing, etc., when we exited BK)

I don't think you had any orders for widebodies announced, but I may be wrong.

The 190's et al should indeed be shared, and I don't think anyone (well reasonable) would have heartburn voting for a contract with a percentage of these seats fenced for bidding by West. In fact USAPA communications have indicated something like this would most likely be the case (nothing specific) and have pared East expectations.

The placement of these planes will be at company discretion and may force some to come East to take advantage, but that is the same reason you have not seen much growth/upgrades during this interim period. Company discretion.

 

[EastUS]

Regarding the second, no you are not a hypocrite, but you are a little transparent. Will you listen? Yea probably. Will you care? No, probably not. The whole idea behind usapa is to render us out west moot, everything said otherwise is just window dressing.

Sigh..Fair enough. That's merely a somewhat more polite form of "Scrooch you Eastie" with yet another implication of insincerity/lack of "integrity" etc via the "transparent" bit. No harm/no foul as I find nothing out west to admire myself. I would now, as has always been the case, personally prefer if we could find some common ground that would actually prove workable. If there's no such notions out west..so be it. There's no requirement for ever becoming fast friends, nor any real likelihood of such happening.

Addendum: Post-Nic, when the west perceived itself as all-powerfull..there wasnt' the tiniest squeak or mutterance about even talking with the east. Given that the "balance of power" appears to be radically shifting; What might you presume my vile and "transparent" motives to be for seeking any additional discussion with you guys at this time? Consider, for even a moment, that many might truly not be ruled exclusively by "It's ALL about MEEE!!!" as a bedrock "principle", and see actual value in seeking workable solutions instead. I've zero concern with any intended "All out Warfare" (although I think it highly overrated where fun's concerned). In any case..we'll hopefully,.... eventually... work things out.

 

[Leonidas]

There are far smarter folks than I able to tackle this question. But for what it's worth... How about some proportional division of all future a/c deliveries (of course I would include the 190's/757's and any 330's delivered since 19th of May '05)? Of course this would/must include a domicile within a domicile setup. I say this so as to protect "seniority" within our respective CBA's until a combined CBA is negotiated and passed. Obviously the company wants the 190's, for example, to fly out east due to the nature of the market so we need some sort of access to these airplanes for the west. Again a domicile within a domicile could be one possibility.

A far more important question for me and my peers here in the west is how to rectify the issue concerning the upgrades the east has enjoyed. Over 400!!!!! We've had roughly 40. This disparity is not fair no matter how you want justify it. And when one uses terms like "lifetime fence" it has the effect of steam under ones collar...

Anyhow I really do not have the answers to our questions. But open and honest debate is one element that should be sought after continually until a solution is reached. From my own point of view USAPA seems more intent on dictating to me and my peers rather than debating the issue.

Tiger why would we give these scabs anythung? They have enjoyed 400 upgrades, that is more than enough. why do awa guys insist on negotianing the Nic. away?

 

[EastUS]

Tiger why would we give these scabs anythung? They have enjoyed 400 upgrades, that is more than enough. why do awa guys insist on negotianing the Nic. away?

Said "upgrades" put previous captains back into the left seat, and were based upon east attrition..but, no matter it seems.

"why would we give these scabs anythung?" Sigh..no reason that I can imagine. All of the world is clearly within your dominion, and thusly, entirely yours to "give" or "get" I suppose. OK: Just bring on the "All out War" mighty King. "Cry Havoc!..and let slip the "Army" of Spartans/Wolverines!!"

Grow up.

 

[EastUS]

There are far smarter folks than I able to tackle this question. But for what it's worth... How about some proportional division of all future a/c deliveries (of course I would include the 190's/757's and any 330's delivered since 19th of May '05)? Of course this would/must include a domicile within a domicile setup. I say this so as to protect "seniority" within our respective CBA's until a combined CBA is negotiated and passed. Obviously the company wants the 190's, for example, to fly out east due to the nature of the market so we need some sort of access to these airplanes for the west. Again a domicile within a domicile could be one possibility.

A far more important question for me and my peers here in the west is how to rectify the issue concerning the upgrades the east has enjoyed. Over 400!!!!! We've had roughly 40. This disparity is not fair no matter how you want justify it. And when one uses terms like "lifetime fence" it has the effect of steam under ones collar...

Anyhow I really do not have the answers to our questions. But open and honest debate is one element that should be sought after continually until a solution is reached. From my own point of view USAPA seems more intent on dictating to me and my peers rather than debating the issue.

I've no pretenses towards fully knowing what's possible within our respective sides at this point, but fully agree that the least we can do is strive for mutual debate/communication, with the expressed goal of finding some way of eventually working together. I'm personally in favor of sharing added flying. That's only one vote. I'm confident that many others out here would be of similar thought though, but most certainly not all. It's clear that many out west have no interest in considering any such at this point either. I've personally, ZERO interest in seeing us permanently divided and distressed. The whole Alpa-Nic business has established a fine field for "eternal" animosity/mistrust/you name it. We've a long way to go if we're to find ways of getting together as an actual group. I do not believe it possible by way of either side disregarding the other's ideas and concerns. Talking's a start.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Sigh..Fair enough. That's merely a somewhat more polite form of "Scrooch you Eastie" with yet another implication of insincerity/lack of "integrity" etc via the "transparent" bit. No harm/no foul as I find nothing out west to admire myself. I would now, as has always been the case, personally prefer if we could find some common ground that would actually prove workable. If there's no such notions out west..so be it. There's no requirement for ever becoming fast friends, nor any real likelihood of such happening.

Addendum: Post-Nic, when the west perceived itself as all-powerfull..there wasnt' the tiniest squeak or mutterance about even talking with the east. Given that the "balance of power" appears to be radically shifting; What might you presume my vile and "transparent" motives to be for seeking any additional discussion with you guys at this time? Consider, for even a moment, that many might truly not be ruled exclusively by "It's ALL about MEEE!!!" as a bedrock "principle", and see actual value in seeking workable solutions instead. I've zero concern with any intended "All out Warfare" (although I think it highly overrated where fun's concerned). In any case..we'll hopefully,.... eventually... work things out.

There are east guys, even those who vote usapa who most likely are well intentioned, decent people. I have no doubt about that. However, I don't think it takes an Einsten or Sherlock to see that those men and women will be shouted down and put in their place quickly under usapa. Its not necessarily against you as a person, but rather the east under usapa as a whole.



Fortunately for the west, usapa I think will be its own worst enemy should it get voted in. Like I said, if I were an east pilot I'd be more worried about the usapa brain trust than our "ten year" war chief and all us western indians.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Regarding the first paragraph I think you should fear yourselves more than our ten year war chief.

Regarding the second, no you are not a hypocrite, but you are a little transparent. Will you listen? Yea probably. Will you care? No, probably not. The whole idea behind usapa is to render us out west moot, everything said otherwise is just window dressing.

I really do believe that USAPA wants input from the west, and will honor it. I don't think anyone on the east feels that additional flying should not be shared with the west, be it 190s or even 330s. Every time the east has offered an olive branch, our hands get bitten. The way to start a dialogue is not to shout obscenities to the very people who come on your turf to hear what your concerns are and what you have to say that is productive for all of us. What job protections do you want? If you want a guarantee of shared additional flying, why didn't someone demand that of USAPA at the roadshow rather than call the unpaid volunteers scabs?

We REALLY don't want your flying. We REALLY will share proportionally whatever we gain together once ALPA is out of the picture. At this point all USAPA is asking for is your ideas presented in a civil manner. It does not seem that it is forthcoming, so by default you are forfeiting the very voice we are asking you to exercise.

So be it. Amen.

Let's vote.

 

[Leonidas]

ARE THESE GUYS FOR REAL?

Yesterday, the US Airline Pilots Association held a Phoenix road show. Representing USAPA was their self appointed officer core; President Stephen Bradford, Secretary Treasurer Mark King, and Communications Committee Chairman Scott Theuer. Lee Seham from Seham, Seham, Meltz, and Petersen, LLP was also present for part of the meeting.

Having seen their tag lines of “Pilots First†and “Seniority Matters†along with a promise of a new beginning for all US Airways pilots, we were all quite interested in hearing their presentation. Certainly, they must have a plan for representing the largest pilot domicile at US Airways. Certainly they must have a plan to obtain an industry leading contract and move our combined pilot group up from our industry bottom wages. Certainly they must have a plan to mend the differences between the two pilots groups and create a unified one. We all know that the primary objective of any pilot union is to bargain with management as a unified group for better work rules, benefits and pay. We anxiously gathered to hear from their brain trust the vision for our future. To put it mildly, the amateurish preparation for this meeting was either complete incompetence or utter insincerity. What we saw was a self appointed leadership with self serving interests that has no plan, back up plan, or resources. Their attempts to explain that it would be the USAPA Congress that would convene and make these decisions and that the Congress would include West pilots and their input, was disingenuous at best. They had little to offer other than to attempt to mask their sole objective.

You can imagine the disappointment and outright laughter in the room when it was revealed that this so called union didn’t have a plan for better work rules and pay. Lee Seham declared that under USAPA all that is required is a change of negotiating style. That Mr. Scott Petersen (an attorney) would lead the negotiations and single-handedly deliver a contract. No need for rank-n-file solidarity, no need to act in unison against management. Just make your demand and Parker will yield. In reality, Mr. Bradford and his union busting law firm have a one play “Hail Mary†plan to present a date-of-hire seniority list to Mr. Parker to replace the binding Nicolau Award. They are going all-in on this singular goal with no plan “b†should Mr. Parker reject their request. Can you believe that when Mr. Bradford and his so called officer core were asked by numerous pilots about their fall back plan, they admitted that THEY HAVE NO FALL BACK PLAN - THEY DON’T NEED ONE!

To make matters worse, Mr. Bradford and his legal counsel did not understand the basic negotiating concept of leverage. Numerous questions were posed asking how they would have any success against Mr. Parker and his hired gun Jerry Glass if they represented a severely divided pilot group. It became apparent that USAPA’s only leverage would be in offering Mr. Parker a concessionary contract in return for accepting a new seniority list. That’s right; THEY ARE PLANNING TO BUY THEIR SENIORITY!

The America West pilots in attendance were clearly frustrated with the evasive and disingenuous answers from Bradford and his self appointed officers. The more they spoke, the more obvious it became that the only reason they even came to Phoenix was to fill a legal square in their raid on ALPA. They have no intention of providing a quality representational product to our pilots. They have no intention of defending the core union concept of strength in numbers. Their singular goal is to destroy the career of every America West pilot and buy their seniority using blood money from a bottom-feeder contract.

The defining moment of the road show was when the USAPA spokesmen abandoned the meeting three hours early. They decided that they didn’t like what they were hearing from the pilots of US Airways’ largest pilot domicile so they picked up their bags and left. They didn’t like hearing from us that we weren’t interested in an organization that seeks to destroy our careers through the tyranny of the majority. They couldn’t handle the heat in Phoenix on this beautiful March day and they left. Just wait until they see the temperature of this pilot group should these guys win the election. These pilots aren’t leaders, they’re cowards. They’re not man enough to hear dissention and engage in open debate. One must wonder, “WHEN AND WHO WILL THEY WALK OUT ON NEXT�

In the next few days you will receive balloting instructions from the NMB. It is critical that you cast your vote for ALPA and repel this raid on our Union. If you encounter yellow lanyards, we ask that you maintain your decorum and engage in a professional and dignified manner. If you engage in a conversation with an undecided voter, highlight the importance of remaining in the world’s largest pilots union.

With all of the distractions of this raid, it is critical that we maintain the highest level of safety and concentration while flying our aircraft. America West has a long tradition as one of the safest airlines in the world and we need to continue that legacy. We cannot allow these distractions to penetrate our flight decks. We owe it to the passengers that entrust us with their lives.

If you have any questions please call any one of us. Our call center will also open on Monday, March 24th. A volunteer will call you back if you leave a message. The number to the call center is 1-877-KEEP ALPA (1-877-533-7257)

Thanks again for all of your support!

In Solidarity,

 

[Leonidas]

http://web.mac.com/dvcapture/USAPA/PHX.html

 

[sharktooth]

ARE THESE GUYS FOR REAL?

The defining moment of the road show was when the USAPA spokesmen abandoned the meeting three hours early.

Yes, repeatedly being called a scab is so conducive to an interchange of ideas.

Deliberately side-railing a presentation, yelling above the speaker are all too common in a kindergarden. Too bad Richard was not there with his capability to cornfield the inexperienced.

BTW, leo, you do know the history of your namesake, right?

 

[Tiger 1050]

Tiger why would we give these scabs anythung? They have enjoyed 400 upgrades, that is more than enough. why do awa guys insist on negotianing the Nic. away?

Leonidas,

I know who you are and I respect your position and the work you are doing. Having said that I am my own person and no one will dictate to me how I conduct myself regarding this debacle. Do I agree with USAPA? No I do not. Will I vote for ALPA. Yes I will. Do either of these points somehow prevent future discussion concerning our plight? I do not think so. Each side will do what they believe will further their own agenda. As for the East, no one should be surprised by their actions. And conversely they should not be surprised by our display of resolve during the USAPA road show in PHX yesterday. But to label them "scabs" is somewhat of a misnomer. I believe that term should be reserved for the most vile of those in our industry... People who cross a picket line and who perform struck work.

As far as the 400 upgrades, read my post. It is a huge sticking point I fully intend to right if at all possible. I agree it is WAY more than enough. And rest assured I have no intention nor do I have any power to negotiate the "Nic" away. But I am curious why you believe one could, or better yet, tell me of examples where such has occurred?

So after all this chatter from me I believe we should take an unemotional look at this and then decide what avenue is best to suit our purpose...

“Every man has a mob self and an individual self, in varying proportions” D.H. Lawrence

I suppose each day we get up and decide which will take precedence...

 

[Leonidas]

http://crewroom.alpa.org/awa/DesktopModule...ocumentID=42422