ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week with a Poll 3/16-22

[EastUS]

As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. It's just sad watching the horse die of thirst beside the water trough......

Jim

"What if's", "maybes", "I think you're wrong"/etc, may be discussed with the wildest abandon ad infinitum.

It's my belief that we're simply diametrically opposed as to the actual value of ALPA as well as any/all notions of "relative seniority" as being even slightly reasonable, versus completely insane. It's my earnest feeling, based upon many years observation, that ALPA's become not only useless, but an actual detriment to piloting careers. It takes little clairity of mind to additionaly see that "relative seniority" is a tragically failed experiment. You can assign blame and the fullest imagined responsibility to any given pilot group as you wish. That does nothing to explain the huge declines in pilots' lifestyles and benefits under Alpa, nor serve to wave any wand that can magically eliminate the chaotic distress induced by, and general failures attendant to attempted institution of your notions of what constitutes seniority. You couldn't personally sell it back in the PI-US merger days, and you're not going to see people out here buy it now. Have you no thoughts on just why it's not actually working for groups like NWA-DAL? Is that also the fault of the East pilots? Do ALPA's "guildelines" truly work in the real world? I submit that they clearly DO NOT, and that the AWA-US case alone provides ample experimental data proving exactly that. What more perfect example of ALPA "processes" and "guidelines" achieving nothing more than sextreme hostility and fully uncooperative pilot groups could one possibly want?

"It's just sad watching the horse die.." Not really, unless you bet on Number Six "Alpoid-Dancer" to win, place or show. Any caring Vet knows when to put an animal out of it's misery.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Inappropriate analogy.

73pilot makes the right arguments for unrelated reasons. You seem to be trying to correct him, then, make a comment that "salvation is right next to the pilot group". Are you talking about ALPA being the savior? ptui. Sorry, left a bad taste in my mouth.

"It's just sad watching the horse die.." Not really, unless you bet on Number Six "Alpoid-Dancer" to win, place or show. Any caring Vet knows when to put an animal out of it's misery.

While neither response is surprising, both completely miss my point. Other than ALPA is the current CBA and therefore signed both East & West contracts, my point has nothing to do with ALPA. It was addressed to the "Stick your fingers in your ears and say la-la-la-la" to keep from hearing anything that may be contrary to your preconceived notions.

No, sharktooth - ALPA isn't represented by the water trough. The water trough is the merger policy in both contracts that AAA737 refuses to recognize is there with his "Which contract contains the Nic award? If you answered neither you're right." There is a settled combined list, determined per the language in both contracts that USAPA will inherit. Will USAPA be able to change that? Possibly, but refusing to acknowledge the reality of the situation that exists today is just dumb.

But hey - if sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating la-la-la-la

Jim

 

[700UW]

A change in represenation does not change your CBA nor does it make arbitration awards go away.

Ask AMFA at UA, NW and WN, ask the AFA at NW.

 

[EastUS]

While neither response is surprising,....
Jim

Nor is yours sir. As for how well your notions on "seniority" actually fit into the real world, well: "But hey - if sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating la-la-la-la..." etc.

"Will USAPA be able to change that? Possibly, but refusing to acknowledge the reality of the situation that exists today is just dumb." I'll accept the "possibly" as a major breakthrough

Have a good one.

 

[nycbusdriver]

A change in represenation does not change your CBA nor does it make arbitration awards go away.

Ask AMFA at UA, NW and WN, ask the AFA at NW.

Okay.

Fine.

Let's vote.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'll accept the "possibly" as a major breakthrough

Have a good one.

It is surprising that pilots especially would ignore something merely because it's inconvenient - like the language in a contract that USAPA will be charged with upholding and enforcing until replaced/amended. If a low oil pressure light come on in flight, it's inconvenient - may lead to shutting an engine down and diverting. But wait - it's a possibility that it's a bad indication. Now that's a breakthrough, so ignore it......la-la-la-la

Don't like what the contract says - claim it doesn't say it....la-la-la-la

Don't like what the TA says - claim it goes away although the union you support and believe says it doesn't.....la-la-la-la

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

It is surprising that pilots especially would ignore something merely because it's inconvenient - like the language in a contract that USAPA will be charged with upholding and enforcing until replaced/amended. If a low oil pressure light come on in flight, it's inconvenient - may lead to shutting an engine down and diverting. But wait - it's a possibility that it's a bad indication. Now that's a breakthrough, so ignore it......la-la-la-la

Don't like what the contract says - claim it doesn't say it....la-la-la-la

Don't like what the TA says - claim it goes away although the union you support and believe says it doesn't.....la-la-la-la

Jim

BBB.

Okay, whatever you say is always 100% correct, precise, complete, and infallible (the Pope has nothing on you!)

Let's vote.

Oops! My bad! YOU don't get to vote, do you?

 

[sharktooth]

While neither response is surprising, both completely miss my point.

That was my point, that the analogy was inappropriate because it brought ambiguity rather than clarification. That is why more than USEast and myself missed your "point".

No, sharktooth - ALPA isn't represented by the water trough. The water trough is the merger policy in both contracts that AAA737 refuses to recognize is there with his "Which contract contains the Nic award? If you answered neither you're right." There is a settled combined list, determined per the language in both contracts that USAPA will inherit. Will USAPA be able to change that? Possibly, but refusing to acknowledge the reality of the situation that exists today is just dumb.

The combined list is hardly settled, needing two, highly conflicting groups of pilots to assent. Should the proposed list, the "nic", be found to be contrary to the C&BL in effect, then the "nic" is in error and the list will be rectified. After all, Mr. Kagel offered the PI Merger Committee the opportunity to re-order their list (about Empire) in order to comply with PI's request for slotting so we know it is not impossible.

No one is saying that is the way it will go, and we are all ears as to differences of opinion, it is just that sometimes the underlying assumptions about what is and what is not are misinterpreted, not understood or just plain fantasy.

I believe that USAPA will be the only way for US to survive, if nothing else, because they don't have fifty years of baggage to haul around with them, not to mention they, by necessity, will have to walk around with their ears to the ground, all the time.

 

[EastUS]

It is surprising that pilots especially would ignore something merely because it's inconvenient -

While we clearly differ as to the probable legal results from booting Alpa, I find that observation to be nothing short of amazing, given that you've evidenced not the slightest inclination towards perceiving, much less ever acknowledging the wholesale chaos that actually results from your/ALPA's position on "relative" seniority. Perhaps that'd be a bit too inconvenient, and is best ignored. Don't like what actually happens in the real world when such BS's attempted..claim it doesn't...la la la/etc.

We'll agree to differ.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'd invite you to find anywhere where I've said that the current situation is not "chaos", to use your word. We have differing opinions on the cause of the "chaos" or even whether there should be "chaos" but I've never said it doesn't exist.

What I'm saying is that while everyone is entitled to their own opinion, nobody is entitled to their own facts. Your opinion and mine may differ drastically on whether the language in the contract will make any difference in the outcome of this "chaos". But if you (or AAA737Pilot, nycbusdriver, End of ASPA, whoever) claim the language isn't even there you're inventing your own "facts" and ignoring reality.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

We know that there is zero percent chance of getting rid of Nicolau if we stay with ALPA. Even if there is only a 5% chance of getting rid of it by going to USAPA, then I vote for USAPA. Also, getting rid of a union with NO merger policy (requiring an arbitrator is a "non" policy), that absorbs 75% of the dues we pay at other than our airline, that gave away the pension, signed on to permanent concessions and many other abuses, is a big plus, as well.

I can't wait to get the voting materials in the mail. Should be any day now!

 

[ableoneable]

I can't wait to get the voting materials in the mail. Should be any day now!

"I am an East pilot!"

And your CEO AND your President said the same was going to happen to AWA. Why didn't Nicolau listen to their statements? I hope someone is looking into the relationships between the lawyers for both sides and the objectivity of Mr. Nicolau. That, and the facts that he apparently disregarded the seniority list submitted by the East MEC in favor of some other list which was favored by the West. Mr N's objectivity is clearly in question. There's no way you'll convince me that the award was not one-sided, based on the amount of vitriole in favor of the award coming from the West and against from the East. I've NEVER seen a more lop sided argument. EVER.

No, I'm not an East pilot.

Now, back to lurking.....

"No, I am not an East pilot!"

The whole "career expectation" thing was totally ignored by Nicolau. AWA CEO AND President both acknowledged that BOTH carriers would have ceased to exist. Puts both even in "career expectations" to me. Also, the West did not have any wide body or international flying at the merger time. So just how are they now entitled to it? I never heard anybody in the East talking about straight DOH, but that everyone should get credit for time served with the company. The arbitrator ignored all of it, even choosing to use an incorrect seniority list for the East guys which was submitted by the West side. Looks pretty slanted to me, and I'm a bystander. ALPA's entire goal in this was to destroy the East guys seniority for future mergers. If the Nic award stands, they accomplished their goal.
Because the east side has all the types the west has. Therefore, even the 190 guys would one day be able to fly an airbus 319/320. The west side did not own or even have on order any large widebody aircraft.

"Not an east pilot."

That's why. And I'm not even an employee. This will all be for naught when the age 60 rule goes away anyway.

"Not an east pilot."

Then save your 15%. I'd rather have a vote in my future. I hope ALL 1700 West guys think like you. That would make the East guys really happy, being able to just impose their will with no opposition!

"I am an east pilot."


So which is it?

Sometimes you're an accident investigator, sometimes you're a disinterested third party, sometimes you're an east pilot, but always you are a lightweight.

 

[prechilill]

"I am an East pilot!"



"No, I am not an East pilot!"




"Not an east pilot."



"Not an east pilot."



"I am an east pilot."


So which is it? Sometimes you're an accident investigator, sometimes you're a disinterested third party, sometimes you're an east pilot, but always you are a lightweight.

Perhaps he is an imposter posing as your typical emotionally distraught and outraged career first officer we see so much of around here.

 

[sharktooth]

Perhaps he is an imposter posing as your typical emotionally distraught and outraged career first officer we see so much of around here.

Prec and notsoa1 -

Inexperience might cause one to leap to conclusions. or, perhaps your primitive focus excludes likely options.

Like, perhaps, Bear96, maybe the poster is a highly involved spouse, making all of the quotes, true.

 

[ableoneable]

Prec and notsoa1 -

Inexperience might cause one to leap to conclusions. or, perhaps your primitive focus excludes likely options.

Like, perhaps, Bear96, maybe the poster is a highly involved spouse, making all of the quotes, true.

Nice try.

Lying is lying, misrepresentation is misrepresentation, though I should hardly be surprised that you would leap to his/her/their defense. After all logic, integrity, and reason have no place in destroying the evil that is the arbitrated seniority list.

"Inexperience might cause one to leap to conclusions. or, perhaps your primitive focus excludes likely options."

Ahh... So catching someone speaking out of both sides of their mouth and concluding that they have a problem with the truth is "leaping to a conclusion" which is the result of my "primitive focus".

I see.

Eliminate personal attacks and character assassination and suddenly your postings become........ empty.