AAA ALPA Thread 9/28 to 10/5

[Junebug172]

Looks like some of you are breaking down publically.

From our board:

Although, more FOs I chat with are starting to think with their heads and wallets. All are somewhat reluctant to engage in a long war with the west that prevents a better contract. I for one will not vote for USAPA until I see what is offered by the JNC. I have been burned so many times before by all the Benedict Arnolds around here, that I am now starting to make my own decisions and if that means looking out for me, then so be it. Seniority as we know it has been changed forever and you little boys out west will have to reckon with that one day. My days of fighting are over give me some quality of life and decent pay before I retire after a long hard career. I have been working a farm south of Raleigh for nearly thirty years and have not ever come close to experiencing the mental anguish/exhaustion that I have over the last 5 years here at USAir

 

[EastUS]

. Why aren't we outraged with the award? Simple - our expectations were managed alot better than yours were.

Tiger 1050: "Well... I fell like I won the lottery!!!! YEAH BABY!!!!!!"

Cactus: It's not the job of any union to "Manage expectations"...it's to provide benefits, to the maximum extent that is actually at ALL possible for the membership.

WTF's WRONG with initially at least ASKING for far more than may eventually be obtained? The fact that you apparently seem content with the idea that 200K for a narrow body Capt's pay isn't achievable certainly speaks for how well your own "expectations" have been "managed". I recall making that much from narrow body airline work, in times when said money bought far more than today. Perhaps I should "manage my expectations" down to minimum wage for us all?...Or, more properly..whatever the Alpo geeks think that they can easilly, painlessly, and without any personal effort, actual leadership or any real work, "achieve" in negotiations? Spare me. If your immediate thought is that 200k's "ridiculous".....you've been "managed" all right. One doesn't properly give away the farm at first meeting.

Given that this mismanaged train wreck's currently still making absurd profits, despite the best Sand Castle operational sabotage efforts. Ask yourself the following:

What's the pay rate at Southwest?....and WHY shouldn't we be getting at least that?

If you come close to "I get it...they're not Alpo!"...and that no one's "managing their expectations"....you're starting to wake up.

 

[EastUS]

Looks like some of you are breaking down publically.

For all we know = those are but Alpoid "shills"

 

[hp_fa]

WTF's WRONG with initially at least ASKING for far more than may eventually be obtained?

Absolutely nothing.

The real pressure is when it becomes time to consider alternatives as negotiating positions change and agreement becomes possible. Do we settle and not get all we want but get more then we have, or do we continue on a hardline course? If we go all the way is a potential loss too unpalatable to a possible negotiated result that at least provides us with some control over the result?

To be perfectly honest, I believe that East made a grievous error when they failed to give Nicolau's panel an alternative to DOH/LOS. I also think they made a mistake not trying harder for a negotiated settlement. Finally, the more I read here the more I believe the rank-and-file East members were mislead and/or sold a bill of goods by those they elected. Too many personal agendas all the way around, the elected wanted to stay in power, and the members simply wanted to fly and leave the business to those who ran, were elected or volunteered into positions of responsibility.

To take your question into another area, let's speak of contracts with the company. Both sides ask for something approaching the moon. However if the positions are too far apart the other side may just throw up their hands and, at least mentally, walk away. In this industry the RLA basically takes nearly all power away from labor by severely restricting the use of their one meaningful tool, strike. In the present condition of the airline industry, a strike is an invitation to a preditor to sweep in and possibly buy assets without employees, then the strike potentially becomes, in essence, a mass quitting. Also, the companies use professional negotiators who do this for a living. The average union negotiator, although well meaning and intended, usually simply lacks the firepower to win these days. The whole thing is a mess and the messier it gets, the worse it will get for labor.

 

[EastUS]

Absolutely nothing.

Also, the companies use professional negotiators who do this for a living. The average union negotiator, although well meaning and intended, usually simply lacks the firepower to win these days. The whole thing is a mess and the messier it gets, the worse it will get for labor.

Agreed. 'Tis FAR past time to spray the place for amateur hour Alpoid "negotiators" and put in an organization that staffs such encounters realistically. You must notice that a common theme amongst the Alpo supporters out west is that of "managing expectations".....words simply fail me in any proper forwarding of my utter contempt for any "union" that has so brainwashed it's membership into servile acceptance of even expected future failures via the "union's" pathetic ineptitude, and mediochre staffing.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The West never asked for your civil war, it was launched against us. And, I might add, there are many very good guys on the AAA side who found themselves trapped in your losing cause and to them I extend my sympathy. Fortunately, this tragedy is nearly over and now we can get down to the business of improving the lot of all US Airways pilots as well as setting the stage for the other airlines who will soon begin their own negotiations.

 

[EastUS]

The West never asked for your civil war, it was launched against us. And, I might add, there were many very good guys on the AAA side who found themselves in the same predicament as the West thanks to your East "leadership." Fortunately, this tragedy is nearly over.

You're joking I assume? And...where in ANY of my postings do you find any support for anyone in Alpo?...East or West?. Spare me any bits about east "leadership"....there's been zero such on either side, and certainly none from Prater and the other totally worthless fat bums hanging out at the best hotels, living in fine homes, and generally enjoying living large at all our expense.

My argument with Alpo isn't based on St Nic....that worthless consortium of morons has been destroying aviation careers for decades now.

 

[Junebug172]

For all we know = those are but Alpoid "shills"

Could be, but I doubt it.

Deep down, you know he's not a shill.

 

[EastUS]

Could be, but I doubt it.

Deep down, you know he's not a shill.

Ah...the all knowing, mind reading, bug speaks Actually?...my very first thought was that it is a case of Alpoid shill work. I could certainly be wrong. There are always some self obsessed bums in any large group.

 

[hp_fa]

Agreed. 'Tis FAR past time to spray the place for amateur hour Alpoid "negotiators" and put in an organization that staffs such encounters realistically. You must notice that a common theme amongst the Alpo supporters out west is that of "managing expectations".....words simply fail me in any proper forwarding of my utter contempt for any "union" that has so brainwashed it's membership into servile acceptance of even expected future failures via the "union's" pathetic ineptitude, and mediochre staffing.

The problem there is $$$. USAPA is claiming, as a goal, to have no staff. Well if they are cutting office help to save money, where are they going to be able to pay for professional negotiators? As for West and managing expectations, well I also agree with it. It appears, from where I sit, that their members were well briefed on what was happening and what could be happening in the future. By managing expectations, they avoided having to deal with any one huge and unexpected loss from their members, or at least minimized any potential damage.

 

[EastUS]

The problem there is $$$. USAPA is claiming, as a goal, to have no staff. Well if they are cutting office help to save money, where are they going to be able to pay for professional negotiators? As for West and managing expectations, well I also agree with it. It appears, from where I sit, that their members were well briefed on what was happening and what could be happening in the future. By managing expectations, they avoided having to deal with any one huge and unexpected loss from their members, or at least minimized any potential damage.

"managing expectations" Is nothing more than a prescription for failure....Period.

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough...they're yours"

 

[pilot]

In a nutshell from cactus737 sums it up:

"Here's the thing. When I hear tons of outrage from the AAA pilots, I don't just blow it off as "stupid". People don't inherently like being angry (well most people anyways), so it's difficult for me to believe that there isn't SOMETHING to the outrage. But I would think that you might consider trying to understand (but not necessarily agree with) the West sentiment. We're not trying to buy your seniority, nor do any of us think that the award steals it from you. We're merely trying to move on with the process, and are frustrated that we see the opportunity to make huge advances in our contract (that benefits AAA pilots more than AWA pilots) slipping away. Why aren't we outraged with the award? Simple - our expectations were managed alot better than yours were. Funny enough, normally when the MEC tries to manage our expecations, we try to recall them. In fact, some idiot is trying to recall the MEC right now because we're not trying to get over $200/hr (narrow body) in the contract."


Southwest makes more than 200 an hour on their 737's. You think we shouldn't? You think we shouldn't make at least as much as the highest paid pilots on this planet? What the hell do you think a union is supposed to do? Give back and then sit back and watch as boatloads of money go to the execs while ticket prices drop and we subsidize them?

Talk about managing expectations! You people don't have a freakin clue about this profession.

And you can talk about how the industry has changed all you want. We still fly the jets and Southwest and Lufthansa and others still make the money we made years ago. Your expectations about this profession have been managed into the dirt.

And the West posts since the Nic award came out are proof. Amazing!

pilot

 

[Bear96]

You are correct! Thanks for agreeing.

Either you have reading comprehension problems, or you misstated your position in your preceding post.

You implied that once ALPA is dumped, the Nic award would be "sequestered in the trash" as a result of the ALPA-dumping.

I was disagreeing with that assertion. The status of the Nic award will be the same whether ALPA or USAPA represents you.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Southwest makes more than 200 an hour on their 737's. You think we shouldn't?

Cactus never mentioned Southwest, you did. Further, he's not saying that we shouldn't make $200 and hour but what Cactus is saying is that we have a guy who is completely off the reservation by demanding a recall simply because that guy thinks our MEC is weak for not asking for the moon. The vast majority of West pilots understand that it's a stupid idea to think that the MEC should be replaced simply because they aren't radical enough. I know that is a foreign idea for many on the East who apparently prefer to bow before the false god of knee jerk radicalsm and then wonder why they lose every time.

Talk about managing expectations! You people don't have a freakin clue about this profession.

And you do?

Your expectations about this profession have been managed into the dirt. And the West posts since the Nic award came out are proof. Amazing!
pilot

The only thing the West's actions post Nic are proof of is that unity combined with pragmatism is a winning formula.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

The problem there is $$$. USAPA is claiming, as a goal, to have no staff. Well if they are cutting office help to save money, where are they going to be able to pay for professional negotiators?

Why do you think a new union must be staffed like the old?
Money is not the problem. It's your perception that all things are the same is the problem. Changing to a new union with a goal to keep money required (Dues) to a minimum is an admirable tenet. Because we won't have a bloated staff means we can easily afford the professional negotiators. Plus get better representation at the bargaining table.

The company's hired professional negotiator (Glass) knows all too well in playing off pilots against each other. With our own professionals, their susceptibility to that tactic is reduced to zero. Sen. Bill Bradley once said "You were just plain out negotiated, do you think the NBA players association would rely on in house negotiators? Of course not!!"We hired our own professionals. You should do the same." I'll take his advice over ALPA's anyday.

If you were going to start a new union, would you not take a good hard look at what we've had and try to restructure it into something better?